S007 Body Design Outdated?

[xiaubauu2009]

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Leica S user/owners are the best bunch that any company will wish for. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by xiaubauu2009

[setuporg]

So @ZHNL I see you got the SL2 and are active in their forum, and even say they SL 35mm is the best lens ever.:).  I got the SL2 and my feeling is to stick with the M lenses for now and the S primes, and test them with the S to L adapter.  Otherwise it's a slippery slope with the SL primes all over again...  The EVF is great but there's lag.  Still awesome at night.  Feels like a perfect kids/indoors/night/winter camera...

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[ZHNL]

13 minutes ago, setuporg said:

So @ZHNL I see you got the SL2 and are active in their forum, and even say they SL 35mm is the best lens ever.:).  I got the SL2 and my feeling is to stick with the M lenses for now and the S primes, and test them with the S to L adapter.  Otherwise it's a slippery slope with the SL primes all over again...  The EVF is great but there's lag.  Still awesome at night.  Feels like a perfect kids/indoors/night/winter camera...

I agree with you about EVF advantage at low light. And also, for anything other than moving and bright sun light, it is really pretty good. And 35mm summicron SL is definitely the best lens in the world IMHO,  of course but only technically.
 

I am not sure about AF technology Leica has and they are all Focus by wire lens. I don’t buy Leica for AF, even S.  It has no aperture, no focus ring, no AF/MF button, I will be stuck with the system like S.  if you ever used modern MILC camera such as Z or Sony, you will be surprised how fast and smooth their AF lens can be and how fool proof those focus tech can be such as sticky eye focus:)  As for IQ, the difference is really only happen at WO or close to WO if there is any but they are bigger and slower:) you should really watch out that there are no more dogs in any line right now, the bar is really high now to survive.

I will admit I didnt buy SL lens because of S, I don’t trust leica anymore personally but don’t let my negativity impact your decision. I love Leica S but I am really niche kind of user in this regard. it offer no others offer at least so far. If I quit S, I can buy any MILC system nowdays and be happy. 
 

I may not be one of the best customers above mentioned that any company can only wish for even I am still with Leica after so many dramas over the years and even bought SL2. 

if I am honest, Leica M is the only Leica worth to buy and only Leica I can recommend to people. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, SL2 is really a fun camera, and maybe my favorite MILC to date and I truely enjoy it with S and M glasses but don’t tell me the system offers better IQ than Nikon Z, Sony A7r4 or future Canon RS. It is simply not true. Quite opposite, With NO EFCS, it is really handicap it’s potential for me. 

[Stuart Richardson]

It's interesting that you both like EVF's at night....I find EVF's are terrible at night! Or at least in true darkness. This is one of the biggest areas where I think a camera like the SL2 cannot replace the S. There is a double effect -- 1. the viewfinder becomes extremely laggy and grainy, making it impossible to judge focus. Focus peaking reacts to the grain and is useless, and you cannot judge sharpness because the sensor response is so poor. 2. They are bright and so when you look into them they blind you, and you cannot get around without tripping over a rock and falling off a cliff.

A big portion of my work at this time of year is done in true darkness, and EVF's are terrible in this context. That is the beauty of the S...you can look right through and see the scene. The only problem is the viewfinder information is too bright, but you can just wait for it to turn off, or turn off the camera. The easiest digital camera by far for night focusing is the M10...bright, clear viewfinder with a RF patch that makes it easy to perfectly focus on any point light source (like a star) or on a tree etc. There is nothing in the viewfinder to mess up your vision, though it was better before the illuminated framelines...

I will definitely say, however, that off all the non-film camera implementations that I have used, I think the Leicas are the best for night work. The reason being is that they spend so much time making their interface easy to handle. The S in particular can be completely controlled in thick mittens, which is quite amazing....you can control everything you need with a single thumb and forefinger. The buttons are large enough, and with the long press on the 4 button interface, everything just works. I did a lot of night video work with the A7S, and changing even minor settings means taking your gloves off to access the tiny buttons. When it is -10C and windy, that is a recipe for an uncomfortable night of shooting.

I also have to disagree with ZHNL on image quality. There is a big difference between the ultimate possible image quality and that which you get easily out of camera. I think one of Leica's strengths has always been giving you a very good image out of camera. I print all the time from client's work with other cameras and frankly a lot of them are pretty terrible (in my estimation). I know this is subjective, but I really have to work hard to get Canon files to look good. To my eye their pixel level detail and color are pretty poor. Nikon seems to have better pixel level processing, and better color, but not light years better. Sony looks good for low ISO, but their heavy processing for high ISO's give the details quite a nasty look, and the color and saturation properties are hard to corral into being natural. Fuji is a step above, but there is still something a bit off for me. The only ones I have truly embraced are the Hasselblad, Phase and Panasonic S series. I know this is subjective, but I truly believe that Leica, Phase and Hasselblad have the best image tuning of all digital camera makers. Panasonic is also superb.

[helged]

Not a response to @ropo54 (since I don't know). But of the 6 S-lenses I have, one has failed due to the AF motor. This lens, together with three lenses with old AF motor, were sent to Leica in November, and is now back. Total time out of the house has been about 4 weeks, half of which is due to shipping and duty clearance. I think this is fine. Also the communication with Leica has been fine. Each AF motor fix costs EURO236. As long as the modified motors work properly, I think this is an acceptable cost. The S-lenses shine on L-mount bodies as well, notably the high-resolution SL2 and Panasonic S1R sensors, so my thinking is to keep the lenses irrespective of what will happen with the S-bodies (having the 006, considering the S3). Presently, as I see it, the main drawback with the S-system is not the AF motor failure (since it can be fixed), but the limitation determined by the centre-point focus system, and that the S-sensor is not that much larger than a FF-sensor. Because of the fixed focus point, I had hoped for an optional EVF for S3, even one that could be connected to the mini-hdmi port on the body. But this is to hope for too much - or by too few users - I guess. As several have mentioned, and what a Leica representative told me a few weeks ago, the S3 is still being 'tuned'. Hopefully the S3 makes it soon and that it will be well received.

[alan.y]

2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The only ones I have truly embraced are the Hasselblad, Phase and Panasonic S series. I know this is subjective, but I truly believe that Leica, Phase and Hasselblad have the best image tuning of all digital camera makers. Panasonic is also superb.

Does Leica's and Panasonic's tuning tend to converge after working together for so long? 

[BernardC]

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2 hours ago, helged said:

Each AF motor fix costs EURO236. As long as the modified motors work properly, I think this is an acceptable cost.

I completely agree. It's a fair price to service a 5+ year-old high-end lens, which was probably due for service anyway.

Some will argue that lenses should not need service, but what's the alternative? Landfill? Replacing the lens with a new one of the same type? Servicing your gear is much cheaper in the long term.

Those of you who follow the LensRental blog will know that all lenses need adjustment eventually, and that this service isn't cheap or easy.

[ZHNL]

5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

It's interesting that you both like EVF's at night....I find EVF's are terrible at night! Or at least in true darkness. This is one of the biggest areas where I think a camera like the SL2 cannot replace the S. There is a double effect -- 1. the viewfinder becomes extremely laggy and grainy, making it impossible to judge focus. Focus peaking reacts to the grain and is useless, and you cannot judge sharpness because the sensor response is so poor. 2. They are bright and so when you look into them they blind you, and you cannot get around without tripping over a rock and falling off a cliff.

A big portion of my work at this time of year is done in true darkness, and EVF's are terrible in this context. That is the beauty of the S...you can look right through and see the scene. The only problem is the viewfinder information is too bright, but you can just wait for it to turn off, or turn off the camera. The easiest digital camera by far for night focusing is the M10...bright, clear viewfinder with a RF patch that makes it easy to perfectly focus on any point light source (like a star) or on a tree etc. There is nothing in the viewfinder to mess up your vision, though it was better before the illuminated framelines...

I will definitely say, however, that off all the non-film camera implementations that I have used, I think the Leicas are the best for night work. The reason being is that they spend so much time making their interface easy to handle. The S in particular can be completely controlled in thick mittens, which is quite amazing....you can control everything you need with a single thumb and forefinger. The buttons are large enough, and with the long press on the 4 button interface, everything just works. I did a lot of night video work with the A7S, and changing even minor settings means taking your gloves off to access the tiny buttons. When it is -10C and windy, that is a recipe for an uncomfortable night of shooting.

I also have to disagree with ZHNL on image quality. There is a big difference between the ultimate possible image quality and that which you get easily out of camera. I think one of Leica's strengths has always been giving you a very good image out of camera. I print all the time from client's work with other cameras and frankly a lot of them are pretty terrible (in my estimation). I know this is subjective, but I really have to work hard to get Canon files to look good. To my eye their pixel level detail and color are pretty poor. Nikon seems to have better pixel level processing, and better color, but not light years better. Sony looks good for low ISO, but their heavy processing for high ISO's give the details quite a nasty look, and the color and saturation properties are hard to corral into being natural. Fuji is a step above, but there is still something a bit off for me. The only ones I have truly embraced are the Hasselblad, Phase and Panasonic S series. I know this is subjective, but I truly believe that Leica, Phase and Hasselblad have the best image tuning of all digital camera makers. Panasonic is also superb.

Hi, Stuart, I agree with what you said about truly darkness. I also agree you about shooting total dark, Leica is the best one for handling. My favorite nigh sky camera is M actually minus that famous noise reduction. No need  for focus, super easy to adjust ISO, shutter time, aperture. under truly dark condition, EVF will make you total blind after you remove eye from. That is just a fact. 

Saying EVF is better at low light require a further categorize light condition. Within meter range, as long as camera can feed ISO6400 or 12800 and keep 60fps refresh at f1.4, you can see and focus with EVF, however, under this condition, scene is really pretty dark, I can't really do manual focus at right. M is the one of best still as focus is quite easy not based on contrast. but EVF camera is really more usable under this condition than S(AF is out of question, even under good light ), with Nikon latest D850, it can AF at lower light than my eye can do but view is really dark. 

As for IQ, I compared Panasonic S1 with or without HighRes, Nikon,(D850, Z7), Sony A7rII, Leica SL2 and S007, there is really not much left between those FF system. I like the S007 file the best, D850 2nd, and rest of them are all have plus and minus. At pixel level I just don't see much when I hit 'C' in lightroom to do 100% review. Maybe you are seeing something I don't. They all can super sharp at pixel level, they all require different sharpening routine to make them look the best, they all show diffraction effect easily. They all have superb DR within +-1 stop. I never compare them at ISO400 or above, most time base ISO which is the only time I care about IQ. If high ISO is priority, latest FUJI, Phase MF are best bet. In FF, Sony and Canon is actually slightly better than Nikon but we are split hair.  

Again, as for lens, if I want AF and sharpness, many lenses I tested are just really really sharp. A few really good ones I can mentioned here. 55OTUS, 85OTUS, 135Art, 85Art, Nikon 50f1.8S, 85mmf1.8S, 28f1.4E. and I know Sony 24/50/135 GM are really good. I just don't believe anything more than that are necessary anymore. I A/B test them with Leica M21 28, 50lux, 50APO, 90APO (all M) and also S007 with S glasses. I know how thing pan out. 

I can see merits of S system, contrary to some of you guys opinion, this is the system have potential to differentiate itself from other FF crowd which are all pretty much converging at this point, the competition between them are ergo, price, lens line up and AF tech... You sure this is the Leica future? 

Edited December 19, 2019 by ZHNL

[Jan1985]

The best pictures of my favorite photographers I never checked on Pixel Level i.e. Cartier Bresson. But I love the EXPERIENCE with the S system. The feeling I have while working with the S.

[Jeff S]

17 minutes ago, Jan1985 said:

The best pictures of my favorite photographers I never checked on Pixel Level i.e. Cartier Bresson. But I love the EXPERIENCE with the S system. The feeling I have while working with the S.

I greatly prefer to look at pictures, not pixels.

Jeff

[Stuart Richardson]

Come on guys, we all know that a good photo on a bad camera is better than a bad photo on a good camera. My job is making exhibitions. Trust me, cameras make a difference. There a lot of artists I work with whose work would be improved if they had better equipment and/or were more skilled technically. That does not invalidate their art, it just means that you cannot completely divorce the art from the science.

[ZHNL]

Actually I am limited to just talk about technical spec of gear only. As for Image quality, depend on how we define 'quality,' good work of photography come from any brands. Really, it is the photographer. Especially at year 2019, I don't see much difference between brand under the same sensor size category, seriously.  

[davidmknoble]

On 12/19/2019 at 4:32 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

Come on guys, we all know that a good photo on a bad camera is better than a bad photo on a good camera. My job is making exhibitions. Trust me, cameras make a difference. There a lot of artists I work with whose work would be improved if they had better equipment and/or were more skilled technically. That does not invalidate their art, it just means that you cannot completely divorce the art from the science.

It is interesting to hear this.  I actually came to leica after working with cannon for a long time - but it was in the early 2000’s and it was all based on film.  I realized the lens made the difference - contrast on the film.  Ironic that we used to all have the same sensor (pick a 35mm film and put it in the camera).  Then the lens was really the only difference.  Now, we have to pick a sensor and the lens.

Still holds true - pictures over camera, but skilled use of a tool can make a difference for sure!

[Stuart Richardson]

There is tons of excellent work done on Canon cameras. I just personally do not think they look very good out of camera. But I have a lot of subjective opinions around this stuff since I am put in the position to "fix" the deficits of clients' work. I think some of this is due to the widespread use of zoom lenses. I have yet to see a zoom lens that is as good as equivalent primes, and that includes the 30-90mm S and the 24-90 SL. They may be convenient and brilliant in some ways, but they are always missing something, usually a lot of things. Many artists use them because they are cheaper and more convenient than using prime lenses. Then they ask to blow up their ISO 6400 20mp photo to 100x150cm and wonder why everything is soft and noisy. Usually the most talented artists figure this out pretty quickly, and do the work to either put together the gear and learn the skills they need to make the production side catch up to their art talent, or they outsource the work to people with a more technical mindset, and have them produce the work to their specifications (more of the conductor of the orchestra model).

But anyway, since I encounter files from dozens of different cameras on a regular basis, I tend to get a good idea of what tends to do well, and what not so well. There are some surprises....I was blown away, for example, by the quality of some studio work shot on a Nikon D7000 and 50mm 1.4.

I think one of the strongest arguments in favor of the S system is the integration. As a system, the lenses are superb in their optical performance as well as their rendering, the camera for the most part has the tools to get everything out of them (some AF quirks aside), and the sensors are very high quality. Leica has spent a lot of time getting all the little things right...not only in the sensor, but in the handling. They make it easier to get the best results, especially if you are careful. By contrast I think it is easier to get results with more mainline DSLR's and mirrorless cameras, but the results themselves are often not as ideal. Again, I know this is ridiculously subjective. If you deal a lot with fast moving subjects and rely heavily on AF, clearly a Canon, Sony or Nikon will be a much more consistent performer. There are any number of situations where a different camera might serve you better, but I think the S is remarkable for the balance it achieves between incredibly good output and versatility of use.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[tom0511]

Stuart, I fully agree with you. And whatever I try I can not let go the S and have not found any camera-lens combo that renders so nice and which feels so good in hand (and so heavy in the backpack if you want to carry a couple of lenses   )

 

[xiaubauu2009]

On 12/19/2019 at 7:39 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

It's interesting that you both like EVF's at night....I find EVF's are terrible at night! Or at least in true darkness. This is one of the biggest areas where I think a camera like the SL2 cannot replace the S. There is a double effect -- 1. the viewfinder becomes extremely laggy and grainy, making it impossible to judge focus. Focus peaking reacts to the grain and is useless, and you cannot judge sharpness because the sensor response is so poor. 2. They are bright and so when you look into them they blind you, and you cannot get around without tripping over a rock and falling off a cliff.

A big portion of my work at this time of year is done in true darkness, and EVF's are terrible in this context. That is the beauty of the S...you can look right through and see the scene. The only problem is the viewfinder information is too bright, but you can just wait for it to turn off, or turn off the camera. The easiest digital camera by far for night focusing is the M10...bright, clear viewfinder with a RF patch that makes it easy to perfectly focus on any point light source (like a star) or on a tree etc. There is nothing in the viewfinder to mess up your vision, though it was better before the illuminated framelines...

I will definitely say, however, that off all the non-film camera implementations that I have used, I think the Leicas are the best for night work. The reason being is that they spend so much time making their interface easy to handle. The S in particular can be completely controlled in thick mittens, which is quite amazing....you can control everything you need with a single thumb and forefinger. The buttons are large enough, and with the long press on the 4 button interface, everything just works. I did a lot of night video work with the A7S, and changing even minor settings means taking your gloves off to access the tiny buttons. When it is -10C and windy, that is a recipe for an uncomfortable night of shooting.

I also have to disagree with ZHNL on image quality. There is a big difference between the ultimate possible image quality and that which you get easily out of camera. I think one of Leica's strengths has always been giving you a very good image out of camera. I print all the time from client's work with other cameras and frankly a lot of them are pretty terrible (in my estimation). I know this is subjective, but I really have to work hard to get Canon files to look good. To my eye their pixel level detail and color are pretty poor. Nikon seems to have better pixel level processing, and better color, but not light years better. Sony looks good for low ISO, but their heavy processing for high ISO's give the details quite a nasty look, and the color and saturation properties are hard to corral into being natural. Fuji is a step above, but there is still something a bit off for me. The only ones I have truly embraced are the Hasselblad, Phase and Panasonic S series. I know this is subjective, but I truly believe that Leica, Phase and Hasselblad have the best image tuning of all digital camera makers. Panasonic is also superb.

I personally find EVF to have better usability compare to OVF at pitch black or ND on lens. Sure it's going to be slightly jerky and noisy, but at least I still can frame. OVF will be hard....

[tom0511]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb xiaubauu2009:

I personally find EVF to have better usability compare to OVF at pitch black or ND on lens. Sure it's going to be slightly jerky and noisy, but at least I still can frame. OVF will be hard....

I think that is a very good example how different solutions work for different people and depend a lot on personal requirements and expectations. People who like shooting both images and movie also will prefer a EVF. Others do not have those needs and prefer to see the real light in the viewfinder. I just hope Leica will continue and support the S for many more years, but I am afraid we wont see new lenses. I really would appreciate a WA T/S, or a compact 45mm.

[davidmknoble]

On 12/28/2019 at 10:43 PM, tom0511 said:

Stuart, I fully agree with you. And whatever I try I can not let go the S and have not found any camera-lens combo that renders so nice and which feels so good in hand (and so heavy in the backpack if you want to carry a couple of lenses   )

 

LOL, I agree!  Even the images from the M and SL (which I use) require more work, typically, of the RAW image.  The S still requires some, but much much less.  I can get an image out of the S and ready to print or use with very little tweaks.  It really 'paints' the light.  But I use it for different purposes as well.  I use the S mainly for landscape work and I'm learning more about lighting and portraiture.  If I am shooting wildlife, I use an SL with an R APO 280mm f/2.8, sometimes with the R APO 1.4x converter.  I use the M for walk about  and quick shots.  Very different uses and while both the M and the SL can produce stellar landscapes, the S just makes it easy, which makes it more fun.