S007 Body Design Outdated?

[davidmknoble]

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On body size for the S series - remember this too.  If the body is made slimmer with an EVF, then all the S lenses will need redesigned because the length from bayonet to sensor will reduce.  We would surely have an adapter, but it would be a huge capital investment.  I think this is one main reason the body stays the same.  For 'medium format pixel count' the SL2 will probably suffice for those that want smaller kits.

I'd be willing to bet that in the long run there will be two Leica SL bodies - one for studio  and one for street / sports / etc.  That would allow a fine tuning and maybe even different sensor, but the same list of lenses.  Then, the S could be retired.  Just musing, have zero facts.

[Photon42]

I do not think Leica will actually consider a lens redesign / adapter solution for the S line. The closest approximation I can see is potentially a S4 with an EVF solution, based on SL technology classic S body footprint (more or less) After all, the SL is mirrorless and has similar size and weight as comparable DSLRs.

 

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[setuporg]

Just to get it out of my system, my knee-jerk response to the subject, not the OP, is, "your mother is outdated".  OK there it is.  No offense!  The subject irks me, not the OP.

Edited December 16, 2019 by setuporg

[geetee1972]

Leica won't put an EVF in the S, what would be the point? The OVF is one of the main reasons to choose the S over say a Fuji GFX or Hasselblad X1D.

[Photon42]

5 minutes ago, geetee1972 said:

Leica won't put an EVF in the S, what would be the point? The OVF is one of the main reasons to choose the S over say a Fuji GFX or Hasselblad X1D.

Manufacturing efficiency paired with then an EVF which is deemed good enough, adding in the EVF benefits. Don’t worry too much, it is just a thought and won’t happen anytime soon, I reckon 😎 First, Leica wants to bring to life their S3 ...

[helged]

13 minutes ago, geetee1972 said:

Leica won't put an EVF in the S, what would be the point? The OVF is one of the main reasons to choose the S over say a Fuji GFX or Hasselblad X1D.

An optional EVF for the S-system would increase the applicability of the system. The OVF is great, no doubt about that, but having the option to channel the back screen live view to an EVF would simplify certain types of photography, in my case macro, long tele and to ensure focus wide open. 

[Stuart Richardson]

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Not to be too trite about it, but Leica did put an EVF in the S...it is the SL. It was made with design and interface cues from the S, as well as the Maestro processor. The S series is basically an extension and modernization of the R series. At the time, it made perfect sense to increase the sensor size. Leica's trouble with the R was that it was difficult for them to compete with Nikon or Canon SLRs with AF, even if the Leica R lenses were better. It did not matter so much with 35mm film, as the resolution was already good enough with Nikon or Canon. With digital and starting from scratch, they could increase the sensor size a bit while keeping the body more or less the same (a bit bigger, but not dramatically so), while having a larger sensor that could give much higher image quality than 35mm cameras at the time. There was no D800 back then...the highest resolution 35mm digital cameras were 20-24mp. 37mp was a huge leap over them, especially with lenses as good as the S. They could charge a large premium over 35mm cameras and it could be easily justified for some photographers seeking both 35mm convenience and medium format quality (nothing at the time had the versatility or speed of the S).

Now things are quite different. 35mm cameras have extreme resolution and far better lenses than they had before. Medium format cameras are either much cheaper or have larger sensors with much higher resolution. Leica has changed management since the team that started the S. It is clear that they are focused on the SL line, and promote it as their professional camera. The vast majority of development resources seem to be going there and to the Q and M. To be charitable, the S is a "mature" product line. They seem to have made everything they want to make. Given the seemingly slow sales, poor resale value and AF fiasco, it seems unlikely that they will do a lot to revitalize the system. Hopefully they will keep making bodies, but I think it is probably unlikely that they will do an EVF, or continue with larger than full frame bodies. I think from Leica's perspective, 37mp was already "enough" for anyone, and if they are offering 47mp in 35mm with lenses that can resolve it....I think they are probably likely to leave medium format altogether. Just my opinion, but we'll see! I think there are not going to be any definitive answers until about 4 or 5 years after the S3 is released, but by then it should be pretty clear if we do not see any new lenses or accessories (which would then mean no development for more than ten years). 

[davidmknoble]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

but we'll see! I think there are not going to be any definitive answers until about 4 or 5 years after the S3 is released, but by then it should be pretty clear if we do not see any new lenses or accessories (which would then mean no development for more than ten years). 

I think that is a true statement - we will see based on the post work done after the S3.

I do still think for studio and landscape work, the S is a better tool - the dynamic range is catching up, but still better on the S and the tuning of the S is such that very little post processing needs done. 

It is a niche of a niche for Leica, and I think I agree it is a mature line.  But the lenses will last at least until and S4 of S5 if resolution goes up and technology allows for real dynamic range capture to stay at 16 EV or get better.  Physics limits that more than anything.

You know, it is ironic, but it was either late 2018 or early 2019, the US National Park System put out a job offer for the park photographer to work around the country documenting the national parks.  The prime qualification was an ability to use an 8x10 view camera, along with digital.  No matter how you slice it, a larger sensor does better than a smaller sensor, everything else being equal.

LOL, we have beat this topic to death.  We should all go work for Leica!

[ZHNL]

On 12/16/2019 at 6:09 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

Not to be too trite about it, but Leica did put an EVF in the S...it is the SL. It was made with design and interface cues from the S, as well as the Maestro processor. The S series is basically an extension and modernization of the R series. At the time, it made perfect sense to increase the sensor size. Leica's trouble with the R was that it was difficult for them to compete with Nikon or Canon SLRs with AF, even if the Leica R lenses were better. It did not matter so much with 35mm film, as the resolution was already good enough with Nikon or Canon. With digital and starting from scratch, they could increase the sensor size a bit while keeping the body more or less the same (a bit bigger, but not dramatically so), while having a larger sensor that could give much higher image quality than 35mm cameras at the time. There was no D800 back then...the highest resolution 35mm digital cameras were 20-24mp. 37mp was a huge leap over them, especially with lenses as good as the S. They could charge a large premium over 35mm cameras and it could be easily justified for some photographers seeking both 35mm convenience and medium format quality (nothing at the time had the versatility or speed of the S).

Now things are quite different. 35mm cameras have extreme resolution and far better lenses than they had before. Medium format cameras are either much cheaper or have larger sensors with much higher resolution. Leica has changed management since the team that started the S. It is clear that they are focused on the SL line, and promote it as their professional camera. The vast majority of development resources seem to be going there and to the Q and M. To be charitable, the S is a "mature" product line. They seem to have made everything they want to make. Given the seemingly slow sales, poor resale value and AF fiasco, it seems unlikely that they will do a lot to revitalize the system. Hopefully they will keep making bodies, but I think it is probably unlikely that they will do an EVF, or continue with larger than full frame bodies. I think from Leica's perspective, 37mp was already "enough" for anyone, and if they are offering 47mp in 35mm with lenses that can resolve it....I think they are probably likely to leave medium format altogether. Just my opinion, but we'll see! I think there are not going to be any definitive answers until about 4 or 5 years after the S3 is released, but by then it should be pretty clear if we do not see any new lenses or accessories (which would then mean no development for more than ten years). 

There is no objection from me about all you said. Maybe it is even true S just shouldn't have happened. However, I feel blessed that it was created 10 years ago at that time under those market condition, otherwise, I won't be able to have the pleasure using one for past 6 years and now.  

I have used so many MILC cameras, last weekend I have my SL2 with 50/90APO M took picture of my family under great sunlight hike and play around park. What I was seeing was screwed world with JPEG feed into EVF with crunch black or blow up highlight with minor delay. (very minor but for me, it is enough to affect my manual focus response gained for years) I tell myself here is why you want those great OVF cameras at that moment. It is just so much pleasant to get a touch of real world is like seeing with your naked eyes with frame.  And I still feel S007's file have noticeable juice in depth compare to SL2 during process. 

All EVF camera sucks in that sense. They for sure give you lots of benefits in shooting and get final results done, but they can't replace SLR, for me period. No matter where market is heading, or your brain is telling you, follow your heart. 

Don't let internet, spec sheet on paper or even my post telling you what to do as long as you truly enjoy the process. 

I blame Leica for having S in current states. leaked S3's spec was showing no commitment from them but I hope I am wrong. S status now is not because the platform was inadequate but because Leica didn't do a decent job to correct their mistake, took their share of responsibility and didn't have the confidence for the system themselves. 

[Jeff S]

18 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

Don't let internet, spec sheet on paper or even my post telling you what to do as long as you truly enjoy the process. 

 

+1  The heart of the matter... at least from a user perspective.  (Too bad the business aspect sometimes mucks things up.)

Jeff

[tjv]

I almost never post on this forum, but thought I'd chime in here.

Yesterday I picked up an S 007 at a local store. It is for sale on commission and it has been a long time since I've handled one. I've always thought this, but it's such a great camera design. Feels amazing in the hand. Heavy, yes, but just feels great in hand and is exceptionally solid. AF is truly awful (IMO) for this day and age – single point, noisy and hunts a lot – but YMMV. This has always been a key put-off for me with this system.

But here's the problem...

There was also a cache of lenses there for sale with it. I put the 35mm lens on it, and guess what? AF motor blown... This is gear that is EXCEPTIONALLY low milage – it could almost be sold as new. All of the lenses are now out of standard warranty, and none have had the motors replaced before, so buyer beware I guess. This is just unacceptable, in my opinion. The whole kit was priced at a point where I would have seriously considered it, but this experience really solidified my opinion of the system as a whole and Leica's long term commitment to it. If they really cared there would have been a recall on the lenses, or at least some kind of perpetual warranty at least for original owner. These lenses are crazy money, after all, and market to the pro market.

Please take this as the opinion of someone who has always wanted to own an S camera. I use a Mamiya-Leaf Credo 60 camera on a technical camera for all of my professional work, so it's not like it's an out of the question purchase. I do hope Leica have learnt a lot for the S and implemented many improvements in reliability for the SL system.

[ropo54]

I'm not sure what the price for the 35mm lens (or others might have been), but even adding $300-500 for the AF motor fix, pre-owned lenses can now be found at quite reasonable prices. It might still be worth considering the financial commitment.

[ZHNL]

3 hours ago, tjv said:

I almost never post on this forum, but thought I'd chime in here.

Yesterday I picked up an S 007 at a local store. It is for sale on commission and it has been a long time since I've handled one. I've always thought this, but it's such a great camera design. Feels amazing in the hand. Heavy, yes, but just feels great in hand and is exceptionally solid. AF is truly awful (IMO) for this day and age – single point, noisy and hunts a lot – but YMMV. This has always been a key put-off for me with this system.

But here's the problem...

There was also a cache of lenses there for sale with it. I put the 35mm lens on it, and guess what? AF motor blown... This is gear that is EXCEPTIONALLY low milage – it could almost be sold as new. All of the lenses are now out of standard warranty, and none have had the motors replaced before, so buyer beware I guess. This is just unacceptable, in my opinion. The whole kit was priced at a point where I would have seriously considered it, but this experience really solidified my opinion of the system as a whole and Leica's long term commitment to it. If they really cared there would have been a recall on the lenses, or at least some kind of perpetual warranty at least for original owner. These lenses are crazy money, after all, and market to the pro market.

Please take this as the opinion of someone who has always wanted to own an S camera. I use a Mamiya-Leaf Credo 60 camera on a technical camera for all of my professional work, so it's not like it's an out of the question purchase. I do hope Leica have learnt a lot for the S and implemented many improvements in reliability for the SL system.

You summarize right. This is the saddest part about this system. It is not because it’s form outdated or it’s IQ not good enough. 

[alan.y]

7 hours ago, tjv said:

There was also a cache of lenses there for sale with it. I put the 35mm lens on it, and guess what? AF motor blown... This is gear that is EXCEPTIONALLY low milage – it could almost be sold as new. All of the lenses are now out of standard warranty, and none have had the motors replaced before, so buyer beware I guess. This is just unacceptable, in my opinion. The whole kit was priced at a point where I would have seriously considered it, but this experience really solidified my opinion of the system as a whole and Leica's long term commitment to it. If they really cared there would have been a recall on the lenses, or at least some kind of perpetual warranty at least for original owner. These lenses are crazy money, after all, and market to the pro market.

All the anecdotal evidence I've seen (including my own experience) suggests that the failure of the original AF motors tends be more likely a period of idleness (e.g. sitting at a shop) but is otherwise random and unrelated to how new or old the lens is overall. But I understand the shock and terrible symbolism of an AF failure happening to you at a store. I seem to remember someone even experiencing one at a Leica stall in a photo fair? 

Like ZHNL I agree with you about Leica's attitude towards the AF motor issue, and more generally lackluster service for S customers. 

If not with individual customers, Leica should at least work out a systematic plan with dealers to fix all the used S lenses in their stock for free or a nominal fee. The dealers (e.g. Leica San Francisco with its glut of S gear) have been left holding the bag, as in your example.

Actual sale prices of S gear on the open market, e.g. eBay, have been abysmal.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by alan.y

[tjv]

9 hours ago, ropo54 said:

I'm not sure what the price for the 35mm lens (or others might have been), but even adding $300-500 for the AF motor fix, pre-owned lenses can now be found at quite reasonable prices. It might still be worth considering the financial commitment.

Ordinarily I’d agree with you, but the last time I tried to get a Leica M lens serviced it took 6 months and came back unfixed and without the caps I sent it in with! May be that others have better experience, but I live in the antipodes and Leica service generally costs a lot more and takes a lot longer.

i hope when the S3 comes out they’ve actually used the extra time to really expand the already announced feature set and improve the value proposition - eg multi point AF that covers key areas of viewfinder controllable via a joystick and better processing pipeline - but I fear it’ll basically be an S007 with just a new sensor.

if they do really improve it, I would actually seriously consider jumping in, but only after seeing further development of other accessories and the lens lineup too.

[tom0511]

It is not great thing that the original motor did not hold up with the software updates which speeded up AF.

I think you can find used lenses at such low prices that you can calculate in a motor repair and still have a bargain. Of course it is not great for the original owners (like me). Still out of 8 S lenses I own I think 5 failed, and 3 were paid by Leica and 2 by me. So overall my repair and service cost for 8 lenses which I bought over the last 10 years are about 600 Euro.

3 lenses were checked and AF-Calibrated over the years - I did not have to pay for this.

So overall I am fine with service and reliability of the S.

[Stuart Richardson]

The AF situation is a fiasco, and I agree that there should be a perpetual warranty. This is a critical flaw in the system, and all those lenses made before the fix are broken from the factory. To be honest, in certain cases I think Leica should also pay pick up and return shipping, as they are inconveniencing people to a large degree by making them part with the lens for a period of time. They did this at the time for me, for which I am thankful. Those AF repairs took no longer than a month for me...most of the time was in shipping and customs. In any case, it is a failure, and one which should have been more comprehensively treated. Still, it is one blemish on an otherwise good system. In ten years the only other major issue I had was that the strap eyelet came loose on my S006. That was quite shocking (to Leica as well), and it was fixed for free. The very first S2 I had early in the system had an AF inaccuracy out of the box, and it was replaced. While it is not a perfect record, overall I have felt well taken care of by the S service and team. Assuming you have lenses with the AF fixed, I do not think there is a reason to fear the reliability of the system. I also think that it has been around long enough now that most cameras that would have shown flaws probably already have.

I agree with you regarding the AF though. At the time Leica said they chose to use the screw drive AF system as opposed to USM because it was more accurate and better able to handle the heavier glass. But it seems like this has handicapped the system, leaving them with a slow, loud AF system that wound up being a major point of failure. I wonder if the S system had AF like the SL lenses to begin with, if it might be more popular today.

 

[ropo54]

Perhaps someone outside of Leica knows, but what is the percentage of AF failures on the S lenses?  

Is there a particular date after which new production lenses had had the corrections incorporated into the new build?  

Thanks, if anyone knows.  Rob

[Stuart Richardson]

I am not sure there is any information other than anecdotal. I get the feeling that the rate is really high. My 45mm, 35mm, 70mm, 30-90mm all failed, my 180mm went in for replacement before failure, and my 120mm is the only one that did not fail and I have not sent in. That is a very early lens and too important for me to send in until it fails. I am thinking that perhaps because it is a slower focusing system, it has not failed, but it is going on ten years of fairly regular use without an issue. 

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[tom0511]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Stuart Richardson:

The AF situation is a fiasco, and I agree that there should be a perpetual warranty. This is a critical flaw in the system, and all those lenses made before the fix are broken from the factory. To be honest, in certain cases I think Leica should also pay pick up and return shipping, as they are inconveniencing people to a large degree by making them part with the lens for a period of time. They did this at the time for me, for which I am thankful. Those AF repairs took no longer than a month for me...most of the time was in shipping and customs. In any case, it is a failure, and one which should have been more comprehensively treated. Still, it is one blemish on an otherwise good system. In ten years the only other major issue I had was that the strap eyelet came loose on my S006. That was quite shocking (to Leica as well), and it was fixed for free. The very first S2 I had early in the system had an AF inaccuracy out of the box, and it was replaced. While it is not a perfect record, overall I have felt well taken care of by the S service and team. Assuming you have lenses with the AF fixed, I do not think there is a reason to fear the reliability of the system. I also think that it has been around long enough now that most cameras that would have shown flaws probably already have.

I agree with you regarding the AF though. At the time Leica said they chose to use the screw drive AF system as opposed to USM because it was more accurate and better able to handle the heavier glass. But it seems like this has handicapped the system, leaving them with a slow, loud AF system that wound up being a major point of failure. I wonder if the S system had AF like the SL lenses to begin with, if it might be more popular today.

 

I dont really have a problem with noise or speed of the S  AF. Overall the S007 feels very instant/fast to use.

I think we must not forget the point of time when the S-system appeared. Besides the Mamyia ZD the S was the first small sensor medium format camera which handeled nearly as a dslr.

It is still a great system IMO.