S007 Body Design Outdated?

[Deliberate1]

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The S form is the best I have ever held. In my hands, the ergonomics are perfect. No need for thumbies or external bolt on handles as with my M9 and Q. My right hand reaches into my bag for the S and goes exactly where it should. I just spent two weeks in Italy on my first excursion with the 007, after shooting the 006 for three and a half before that. While the camera with lens is no lightweight, I find its proportions to be ideal as is the balance. I found myself gripping the camera just when walking around because it feels good in the hand. I have never held the X1D and cannot comment. But I have held my Rollei 6008, a beast of a film MF camera, and other 35mm bodies too numerous to count. For me, the S form factor is at the top of the heap.

[albireo_double]

Outdated or not, the S is still a great machine for taking pictures, in the aspects that matter to me. The high capacity batteries and leaf shutter lenses are the highlights for me. I've had the rubber cover of the battery cover unstuck as well - was fixed by Leica for free (but camera had to go to Wetzlar...silly really; why can't the dealer just stick it over the door?). The only thing that really gets on my nerves with the S is the sensor being a dust magnet. After every shoot, I find spots and "worms", sometimes large and have to clean the sensor yet again. I had the same problem with the M9 and M240, much less so with the M10 and I haven't had to clean the SL sensor yet, after 3 months of use. When I had the GFX50s in parallel for a year and a half, I did not have to clean the sensor even once. So, even if I resign from any unrealistic "advance tech" expectations (like having more than one focusing spot, in 2019), I would really love the S3 to keep its sensor clean. Don't care how they do it; I just don't want to see any spots on my pictures, from a EUR20k body.

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[Jeff S]

58 minutes ago, Deliberate1 said:

The S form is the best I have ever held. In my hands, the ergonomics are perfect. No need for thumbies or external bolt on handles as with my M9 and Q. My right hand reaches into my bag for the S and goes exactly where it should. I just spent two weeks in Italy on my first excursion with the 007, after shooting the 006 for three and a half before that. While the camera with lens is no lightweight, I find its proportions to be ideal as is the balance. I found myself gripping the camera just when walking around because it feels good in the hand. I have never held the X1D and cannot comment. But I have held my Rollei 6008, a beast of a film MF camera, and other 35mm bodies too numerous to count. For me, the S form factor is at the top of the heap.

I’ve used the S006 and the X1D for a week.  The S has superb ergonomics (and control interface) IMO. The X1D is even better, and the smaller, lighter lenses also balance perfectly.  Two great designs, given the respective innards. I’d like to see the SL2 get closer to the X1D shape.

Jeff

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I have no complaints with the S design, though I prefer the analog shutter speed dial and color info screen on the S2 and S006 to the mutli functional dial and monochromatic screen on the S007. Having an EVF port would be nice, especially if you could use the basic visoflex for the M and TL cameras, even if I would not use it too often.

[ZHNL]

21 hours ago, ZHNL said:

It is not its body outdated but after all these years there is no technology update make itself dated. 

I am OK with it as is now most likely because I am manual focus and exposure guy when I am using S but I am not sure market think the same. 

I think I was not clear and we all need to be clear about what this thread is all about. 

If the thread is strictly speaking of BODY DESIGN. I agree with everyone stated positively about S that S has the best form for an OVF camera. It hasn't changed a single bit as its selling point for me since 10 years ago. 

Best OVF experience,  Simple control, great lenses with rugged build. I especially love S glasses' real focus ring than FBW implementation nowadays. (X1D and GFX included)

However, we should not limit ourselves for its form and we shouldn't forget about the fact it still use low spec 900K LCD which you only see from budget camera these days, it still offer single AF point  with huge coverage with unknown capability (such as AF fine tune or not, how is the speed and accuracy etc..) It will keep using 5 year old processor that reduces frame rate from 3.5FPS to 3 FPS.  I am not sure how responsive it will be for new 64M sensor for LCD focus zoom or moving around or image review etc... Is there any update on shutter responsiveness or shock?

There is no flip LCD for tripod or low angle use. For big body like S, it need flip LCD more than M, SL or Q for chest level handhold shooting. It has no upgrade for Lenses or any new designed lenses for years. It offer no meaningful firmware update for years to improve AF or functionality. I pointed this out early and whole heartily agree with lack of easy exposure compensation during Aperture priority mode using multi dial. What about EFCS to reduce front curtain vibration, what about multiple exposure mode to improve Signal Noise ratio and long exposure effect for landscape, or multi shot mode to boost resolution? How about IBIS? 

S has huge potential and it pain me to see it end up here after all these years. I still love it and many seems do as well but market obviously doesn't agree with us. I personally think a S mirrorless might be in the horizon given it is a trend that high end is moving to bigger and bigger sensor region and MILC seems become hot topic these days. Nikon Z and Canon R give a path to Leica MF MILC that they can afford to bring another platform with one or two small slow and high quality lens initially and an adapter for S glasses. This potentially will work out I think.   

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I am going back and time and reading posts like this, and the deja vu is rather troubling...it certainly feels a bit like the final days of the R system to me...the biggest difference being that there is an announced successor camera. But the S 007 to S3 does have a bit of the feel of the R8 to R9...fairly subtle changes while keeping the body more or less the same. Of course, I would not say going from 37 to 64mp is subtle, but everything else seems to be, that along with the conspicuous absence of any other developments in the system for 4 or 5 years...

 

[xiaubauu2009]

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2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I am going back and time and reading posts like this, and the deja vu is rather troubling...it certainly feels a bit like the final days of the R system to me...the biggest difference being that there is an announced successor camera. But the S 007 to S3 does have a bit of the feel of the R8 to R9...fairly subtle changes while keeping the body more or less the same. Of course, I would not say going from 37 to 64mp is subtle, but everything else seems to be, that along with the conspicuous absence of any other developments in the system for 4 or 5 years...



 

Well, it just mean that there will be room for new development once this branch of the product is discontinued. Resources can be officially moved to develop something more interesting. Nothing be sad about. Market speaks for itself and there's no room for subpar product.

[ZHNL]

10 minutes ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

Well, it just mean that there will be room for new development once this branch of the product is discontinued. Resources can be officially moved to develop something more interesting. Nothing be sad about. Market speaks for itself and there's no room for subpar product.

The problem is if they can't make S work which IMO is more simple and straight forward (as S users are not asking a lot fancy features but something basic and meaningful upgrade will be enough) then I am not sure they can make anything else work. I for one, as S user, if they choose dump their customer as they did long time ago, I will not buy any product from Leica as I won't trust them anymore. 

IMHO, S has better chance to be successful than SL. They just simply screw it up wrongly. GFX as fancy as it sounds, I personally have zero interest in it. X2D with real focal plane shutter and 5.6M EVF will do it for me though.  

[xiaubauu2009]

9 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

The problem is if they can't make S work which IMO is more simple and straight forward (as S users are not asking a lot fancy features but something basic and meaningful upgrade will be enough) then I am not sure they can make anything else work. I for one, as S user, if they choose dump their customer as they did long time ago, I will not buy any product from Leica as I won't trust them anymore. 

IMHO, S has better chance to be successful than SL. They just simply screw it up wrongly. GFX as fancy as it sounds, I personally have zero interest in it. X2D with real focal plane shutter and 5.6M EVF will do it for me though.  

Well, Fujifilm is just focusing on making the thing works with lower priorities in look and feel. Hence the feeling that it generates when you using the system. It's successful in that sense. you can't fault it, nor can you say great things about the feeling of using it. It's a tool that works very well.

S... I don't know, maybe they were thinking or treating this system like the M that they feel is their success product... and I think that's when things go wrong for them.

X1D/X2D or whatever has the potential and with the future sensor being global shutter possible, it has bigger potential than Fujifilm for sure due to the product design. All they need is to be more reliable and better electronics. With DJI backing (but lately I heard that DJI is pulling plug on the hasselblad and just going to milk Hasselblad for its brand prestige to boost their drone/action camera sector, hence the slow roll out of X2D), they might be able to do it. 

[xiaubauu2009]

14 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

The problem is if they can't make S work which IMO is more simple and straight forward (as S users are not asking a lot fancy features but something basic and meaningful upgrade will be enough) then I am not sure they can make anything else work. I for one, as S user, if they choose dump their customer as they did long time ago, I will not buy any product from Leica as I won't trust them anymore. 

IMHO, S has better chance to be successful than SL. They just simply screw it up wrongly. GFX as fancy as it sounds, I personally have zero interest in it. X2D with real focal plane shutter and 5.6M EVF will do it for me though.  

SL2 if it's a rebadge rework Panasonic S1R, then it will really negates the need for Leica S, and they could safely close it down after the S3 has been around for 2~3 years....

[John McMaster]

Perhaps, but still 14bit colour, once they get FF to 16bit then things will be a bit closer...

john

[xiaubauu2009]

29 minutes ago, John McMaster said:

Perhaps, but still 14bit colour, once they get FF to 16bit then things will be a bit closer...

john

it will be pretty soon, the new sony sensor series that is cut from the same type of those 150mp/100mp will be 16bit.... I think Sony's going to come out with a new 60mp FF A7 series pretty soon from the same sensor tech as the GFX100mp and IQ4 150mp....  tech keep moving forward, I think in the next gen.

[Jan1985]

At the end we want to make some nice photos in whatever resolution or sensor technology.

[Stuart Richardson]

11 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

Well, it just mean that there will be room for new development once this branch of the product is discontinued. Resources can be officially moved to develop something more interesting. Nothing be sad about. Market speaks for itself and there's no room for subpar product.

I am not sure I agree with this assessment. I think it would be something to be sad about, if only because I have tens of thousands of dollars invested in a system that I still want to keep using! I also don't buy into the infinite wisdom of the market. The S is certainly not a subpar product. It is, however, poorly marketed, erratically supported and overpriced. Rather than discontinue everything, I would prefer Leica use that wealth of already invested resources in the system and start to make things more affordable, expanding the market that way. Unlike a brand new camera series, they have hopefully already recouped most of their design, programming and tooling costs. Instead of continuing to sell the S system at a level at which it cannot compete, bring the costs down, perhaps sell it as a package with a lens for a more reasonable price, at least for the 007, and try to gain market share that way. Adapt and survive, rather than try to do the same thing you were doing in 2008 when the market situation was entirely different. I don't think this would harm their brand...I think it would build up an enormous amount of good will, especially from their long-suffering customers, myself included!

Fuji in particular has demonstrated how excited customers get when they actually get what they ask for. There was a whole group of people who came into medium format because they gave them what they wanted -- a MF camera with features they were used to from 35mm at a price they could justify. Similarly, if Leica priced the S at a rate that pros could afford and revamped their P level service, I think pros would buy it.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[chrismuc]

12 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

X1D/X2D or whatever has the potential and with the future sensor being global shutter possible, it has bigger potential than Fujifilm for sure due to the product design. All they need is to be more reliable and better electronics. With DJI backing (but lately I heard that DJI is pulling plug on the hasselblad and just going to milk Hasselblad for its brand prestige to boost their drone/action camera sector, hence the slow roll out of X2D), they might be able to do it. 

Can you quote your information that 'DJI is pulling plug on the Hasselblad'?

[chrismuc]

The S system has all advantages and disadvantages of a mirror reflex camera. IMO the main drawback is (same for PhaseOne 645 cameras) the single center and unreliable autofocus point. As soon as you got used to reliable AF points all over the sensor area from using current mirrorless cameras, there is no way back - at least for me.

I will go one step further: IMO a M camera without rangefinder viewfinder but with integrated high resolution EVF that quickly can be zoomed in to an AF point anywhere on the sensor could be a really cool and lightweight way to use with M manual lenses.

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, Jan1985 said:

At the end we want to make some nice photos in whatever resolution or sensor technology.

This comment fits nicely with this just reposted old article from TOP...

https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2019/06/past-blasts-image-virtues.html

Jeff

[tom0511]

Even though big for a "small" medium format camera I find the body design and button layout very good.

For me there is one big thing: I hope AF accurancy can be improved and for a future body I would appreciate a multiple point AF system.

For travel and hikes the system is on the heavy side compare a more portable x1d (or Fuji).

Overall I dont think its updated, and I find it great that there is a consistent body design, just wish some technical imprvovements for AF. 

I dont know if face detecttion is possible with phase AF? I would love face detection for the S. But I think the S soul is OVF.

 

[xiaubauu2009]

8 hours ago, chrismuc said:

Can you quote your information that 'DJI is pulling plug on the Hasselblad'?

I am sorry, I misinterpreted the info I read.

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Hallo,

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[ZHNL]

On 6/3/2019 at 7:47 PM, xiaubauu2009 said:

Well, Fujifilm is just focusing on making the thing works with lower priorities in look and feel. Hence the feeling that it generates when you using the system. It's successful in that sense. you can't fault it, nor can you say great things about the feeling of using it. It's a tool that works very well.

S... I don't know, maybe they were thinking or treating this system like the M that they feel is their success product... and I think that's when things go wrong for them.

Well, for FUJI, I actually think GFX50S was decent shaped in term of handling. However, I can't say the same with GFX100. A product is not just about ending results. I am not only talking about how it looks but also how functional its design will be in field either on tripod or hand holding. Also we don't know how responsive it will be in hand with EVF and 100M file, there is still many little things that are not on spec sheet. No matter what, I applaud for FUJI's hard work to bring so many upgrade in such a short cycle compare to what we have here in Leica S. 

S is a fine system and still is. I love it. The problem with the system is S007 was announced at 2014 and 5 years past, what exactly Leica has done with it other than boost resolution. If you look each upgrade of M or from S2 to S006 to S007, there seems always show some works have been done. What make Leica think it is enough for just boost resolution of the system and hope it can fight well in this market? Any reasonable customers who invested significant money, time and faith will be wanting more about the system, would you agree?

I haven't seen final detail of S3 yet, I am really hoping I am totally wrong about it for it has only resolution upgrade. finger crossed.