Misaligned images on II(D) negatives

[schattenundlicht]

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Could anybody comment on possible causes/ remedies for what I see on all films from a newly acquired 1932 II (D)?

 

The film is exposed into the lower (in camera upper) sprocket holes and the image is slightly misrotated. This happened on all films so far.

 

I cut all film leaders with my template as usual. I did not encounter any problems while loading. I did exactly according to the old Leica instructions (as I always do with my other LTMs).

 

Any suggestions? Thanks!

 

Mathias

 

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[luigi bertolotti]

Indeed, a  rotation effect... so I think that there is a sort of deflection of the theorically VERTICAL axis on which the winding sprocket does rotate.. can be play or (more probable imho) a permanent small distortion of the engaging mechanism... nothing that a good repair lab cannot fix, I'd say.

[UliWer]

The cause is the Leica II. When you fix the film in the take-up-spool, it is not guaranteed that it runs completely aligned to the "window" opened by the shutter. I don't know any remedy but just to try avoiding that the film is fixed at an angle. Only the later bodies (IIIf, IIIg) had a "Führungssporn" at the bottom cover which helped to avoid this.

 

Though you are in good compagny. There are reproductions of negatives by HCB which show that his film was much more misaligned than yours. 

[schattenundlicht]

[...]

I don't know any remedy but just to try avoiding that the film is fixed at an angle. Only the later bodies (IIIf, IIIg) had a "Führungssporn" at the bottom cover which helped to avoid this.

[...]

 

I always try to align the film meticuously. It is funny though, that the angle and amount of misalignment seems identical on all images on all films. If it were only a matter of fixing the film into the spool, I would expect a bit more random effect or some continuous trend along the image sequence. (?)

 

[...]

Though you are in good compagny. There are reproductions of negatives by HCB which show that his film was much more misaligned than yours. 

 

Unfortunately, that may be the only item, I could claim to have in common with him...

 

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by schattenundlicht

[david strachan]

My IIIc (f conv) does the same.

 

...

[willeica]

I try to ensure that the film cassette and the take up spool are both fully pushed down. I also look at the sprockets for even movement going through the sprocket holes when I make the first wind on with the bottom cover removed. Some of my cameras are better than others, but very few are absolutely perfect. You can make allowances when taking photos, but LTMs do not have very precise viewfinders, so making an allowance for loss of subject matter at the edges, particularly the bottom edge, is wise.

 

William

[UliWer]

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Perhaps the old „Leica Kassette“ may help. It‘s said to have less play than the modern film cassettes. Though of course you need an opportunity to load and unload it.

[jerzy]

agree with UliWer that the problem is most probably on cassette side, it is too high (when loading film and camera is upside down). If pushing the cassette down will not help than the idea from Uli could be the resolution. I assume that the "fork" is not bend or damaged (never seen case like this). There is not too much what you can do on adjustements there

One possibility could be that so called "brige" (German Brücke) for bottom cover latch is bent/damaged. When you lock the bottom cover - does it sit firmly on Vulcanite edge? is there a playroom that you may lift it slightly up after locking? Not much, as I could see on negatives this would be around 0,5-1mm, not more.

[schattenundlicht]

agree with UliWer that the problem is most probably on cassette side, it is too high (when loading film and camera is upside down). If pushing the cassette down will not help than the idea from Uli could be the resolution. I assume that the "fork" is not bend or damaged (never seen case like this). There is not too much what you can do on adjustements there

One possibility could be that so called "brige" (German Brücke) for bottom cover latch is bent/damaged. When you lock the bottom cover - does it sit firmly on Vulcanite edge? is there a playroom that you may lift it slightly up after locking? Not much, as I could see on negatives this would be around 0,5-1mm, not more.

The bottom cover seems to sit flush and without any play. Thanks for the suggestion!

[schattenundlicht]

From the above posts, it seems a bit undecided, whether this behaviour is within the normal range of design limits of the II (D) or could be improved by optimized film handling, or whether it is a definite sign of a technical defect and whether this could be remedied. Since I purchased the camera from a respected dealer just recently, I will contact them and ask them to have their technician take a look at it.

 

Thank you very much, everybody!

Mathias

[david strachan]

Interesting thread thanks Mathias. As mine is a little less "dropped" in each frame, I'm waiting to have it fixed in a future CLA.

 

Perhaps you'd be good enough to let me know what the technician has to say what the problem is..

 

I suspect an adjustment in the take-up sprockets. We will see.

 

...

[schattenundlicht]

[...]

Perhaps you'd be good enough to let me know what the technician has to say what the problem is..

[...]

...

I will report back, for sure. However, it might take a while (postal and technician turnaround etc.).

 

Regards

Mathias

[earleygallery]

Are you sure that you're loading the film correctly? Maybe you're putting it in the take up spool at a slight angle and therefore it's being 'twisted' as it runs through the camera. Alternatively it could be a problem with the take up spool - I'd find another one and try that first. 

[schattenundlicht]

Are you sure that you're loading the film correctly? Maybe you're putting it in the take up spool at a slight angle and therefore it's being 'twisted' as it runs through the camera. Alternatively it could be a problem with the take up spool - I'd find another one and try that first.

 

Of course, I will not dismiss user error, but I tend to align the film meticulously and load LTMs carefully. This is the only camera I am having this issue with. Thanks for the advice of trying a different take up spool. I will try that.

[TomB_tx]

This can be avoided by using a spacer washer at the bottom of the standard cassette - an old trick I knew in the 1960s. The thickness makes up for the amount the standard cassette is shorter than the FILCA. The barnacks were designed so the FILCA fit tight (top to bottom), and shorter cassettes will tend to work down until they hit the baseplate catch, pulling that end of the film across the guide rails. Leica changed with the M series so the FILCA would no longer fit, so they made the IXMOO cassette. The IIIf (red dial) and IIIg cameras added a "finger" guide to the baseplate that keeps the film aligned, but it can't be used on the earlier models as the body casting needs a channel that was added with the IIIf. Here's a standard, IXMOO, and FILCA so you can see the difference.

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[david strachan]

Thanks Tom.

I can't help feeling it is the feed and winding sprockets, being slighty less than perfectly vertical.

After all, that, and the feed sprockets, set the film for the image frame. The winding into the cassette come afterward.

 

Not arguing just trying to apply some mechanical analysis...

 

thanks to the contributors.

[david strachan]

Please note mine have the slighty more "dropped" right hand side just as Mathais' pictures...but not quite so much into the rebate.

Each frame is the same with slightly more "drop" on the right side of each frame.

 

An interesting mystery...other than one wants "perfection"

[jerzy]

I can't help feeling it is the feed and winding sprockets, being slighty less than perfectly vertical.

 

David, you might be right! However not vertical missaligned (unless top plate is damaged/bent) but not properly screwed on.

I will try to explani it on 2 photos from my II 715xx.

Sprocket wheel is screwed on the collar which is under the release btton and fixed with the screw (blue arrow). The collar (orange arrow) has a thread of approx 8mm length and there is a mark on it how far the sprocket wheel needs to be screwed on, marking from setting screw done during assembly at Leitz. As I assume that during final assembly Leitz took care about proper alignment, after CLA I am always screwing the sprocket wheel that far to see the mark in the hole. 

So it could be the case here that the sprocket wheel needs to be screwed few turns more, thus moving the sprockets down, how I believe they should be after seeing negatives.

So yes, it might be corrected however requres dissassembly of the camera, possible completly including shutter mechanism.

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[jerzy]

after some more thinking I have doubts.... It is the casette side of the frame where the film needs to go deeper into the camera, the sprocket/take up spool side seem to have correct heigth. Adjusting the sprocket wheel would make frames parallel to the film but then the whole frame would have reach over the sprockets (preforation). So maybe back to casette idea?

Mathias, let us know what the dealer will say. If I would have the camera in my hand I could possibly find the reason, until now it is rather guess based on my understanding of mechanics of the camera.

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[schattenundlicht]

It is amazing how my depicting such a moderate flaw has led to a thread bringing out the best of this forum: people sharing their experience, expertise, common sense and prowess at detective work. I hope that the dealer's technician will bring a substantial amount of the same