wlaidlaw Posted July 10, 2018 Share #421 Posted July 10, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) That is not right at all. EVERY famous valuable brand has absolutely to have its own movement. Without the own movement you are a nobody resp. in low or at the best in the middle segment. You have absolutely to have your own movement when you want to belong to the top segment. And the pricing of the Leica watch is something that would like to be positioned on the top. But this is fully OT. Still I appreciate what you say about Leica. Just their Mickey Mouse watch is a real pitty. Many of the "own" movements are "ébauches" which are kits of parts supplied by the big movement makers. The makers often customise these, inlay and engrave them. According to my contact at ETA, they very rarely improve the accuracy above a chronometre grade standard movement. I have a Breitling calibre # 17 movement in one of my watches. Again it is from an ETA ébauche. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Hi wlaidlaw, Take a look here M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jdlaing Posted July 10, 2018 Share #422 Posted July 10, 2018 A very relative statement. An SL with 2 lenses could cost approximately USD 15k. A full frame Sony or DSLR kit with 2 top of the line lenses could fetch around USD 7k. USD 8k may be loose change to some, 1/3 of an annual salary to others. And people whose salary is $24,000.00 per year have as much business with a Leica camera as they have with a Rolex or a Ferrari. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 10, 2018 Share #423 Posted July 10, 2018 I know a lot of people who would be well serviced by an M because they never go wider than 28 or longer than 90, but never entertained it because of cost. Canon 5d with 3 primes, Fuji X pro with the same etc, that's what they're all using. Whilst I'd agree with your last statement to some degree, I do know pros using Leicas and other expensive cameras because they are taking the longer view and are factoring in depreciation (myself included). But I only know amateurs currently using 'pro' dSLR and similar cameras. They offer little advantage to most photographers except specialists who need specific feature (sports maybe). For my underwater photography I have got rid of the Canon 1DSIII and still use a 5D2, a 60D (amazingly capable little camera) and a Sony A7II (frustratingly good and bad - poor lens availability for me). Above water the Leica M rules though. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted July 10, 2018 Share #424 Posted July 10, 2018 Exactly. Again, I'm only drawing on what I know - but this is the thing. And the Sony/DSLR will have better IQ, by a decent stretch... That's the point! Leica hast to develop the SL against Sony, as it is the competitor. RF Leicas will never be in competition with Sony DSLMs ... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgh Posted July 10, 2018 Share #425 Posted July 10, 2018 That's the point! Leica hast to develop the SL against Sony, as it is the competitor. RF Leicas will never be in competition with Sony DSLMs ... Right, but they're going to need to drastically drop the price of the body and the lenses, and significantly improve the sensor for that even to be a logical possibility for most business minded professionals. As of now, you pay 2-3x the price and all you get are basically intangibles like a "user experience" - and if one is willing to spend 30 min with a Sony before going out to shoot this becomes a moot point. Those cameras get out of the way perfectly well IMO. The brand will always be worth something, but for most it's not even close to worth the actual difference in price between these cameras currently. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 10, 2018 Share #426 Posted July 10, 2018 The real problem is of course that professionals are not really a commercially interesting customer group for a camera maker. Too few, and not as easily spending as the affluent amateur. Great for marketing purposes, though, if they are well-known. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted July 10, 2018 Share #427 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Ah - but Blancpain uses Swatch (Frederique Piquet) movements Jeagre Le Coultre: the Reverso has a Tavannes movement You go now somewhere else. I did not go into the question of who is the owner of who. But this is a fully different question. Edited July 10, 2018 by Alex U. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted July 10, 2018 Share #428 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Many of the "own" movements are "ébauches" which are kits of parts supplied by the big movement makers. The makers often customise these, inlay and engrave them. According to my contact at ETA, they very rarely improve the accuracy above a chronometre grade standard movement. I have a Breitling calibre # 17 movement in one of my watches. Again it is from an ETA ébauche. Wilson No. Breitling is a brand outside that framework. Of course Breitling have to use ETA. But again. That is fully OT. Edited July 10, 2018 by Alex U. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 10, 2018 Share #429 Posted July 10, 2018 Great for marketing purposes, though, if they are well-known. Which is how its always been. Why is in interesting question ..... But to get back OT. The M rangefinder faces no competition and despite numerous attempts to create a real competitor it has outlived all of them If it retains this status it will no doubt retain a niche position and Leica will continue to trade on its ability to produce an enigmatic and highly individualistic camera to position itself as an intriguing outlier in the photographic marketplace. IMO the last thing Leica should do is to modify it to attempt to compete with products from other manufacturers which it will not be able to match in technical specification. I have said before and no doubt will do so again, why is nobody interested in campaigning for Leica to add a rangefinder to the SL. The answer is obvious so why do people want to modify the M to put it in a position in which it is no longer unique. This doesn't make any sense to me whatever. We have photographic equipment capable of better results than ever before and yet the vast majority of images are viewed at a lower resolution than ever before. Do we actually, genuinely need higher resolution and higher specifications for most of our photography? I am very dubious that we honestly do although I accept that a very small percentage of photographers will be - and they are already well catered for IMO. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted July 10, 2018 Share #430 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) ... I have said before and no doubt will do so again, why is nobody interested in campaigning for Leica to add a rangefinder to the SL. The answer is obvious so why do people want to modify the M to put it in a position in which it is no longer unique. This doesn't make any sense to me whatever.... When the M10 was first presented to the public there was an interview with Leica people who clearly stated that they tried to make a hybrid viewfinder for the M, but that they were not successful. They described what they had achieved as a mixture between a mediocre optical finder and a mediocre electronical one. So if they had more success in the future I see no reason, why they should not offer it - probably as an option, while they uphold the traditional optical finder for everyone who still wishes to use it. You are in a comforatable position when your customers may choose between two of your products and not between your product and another brand. Edited July 10, 2018 by UliWer 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 10, 2018 Share #431 Posted July 10, 2018 They described what they had achieved as a mixture between a mediocre optical finder and a mediocre electronical one. Compromises are rarely successful especially if they are built into an iconic product. Much better to build something effective from the ground up than modify a design to do something it was never intended to do. This discussion always comes back to the same fundamental problem which is the lack of data transfer between lens and body. Without this the body will ever be in a position to compete with other future products which do feature data transfer. Imagine in a decade's time that camera EVFs have advanced to the point where they auto correct for a lenses performance when looking through the evf. Vignetting and chroma may be be adjusted for whilst viewing and corrected for at different apertures and focus settings and so on. But the M lens cannot even transmit aperture data let alone distance data (which would need to be approximated by other means). On the other hand a traditional, simplistic M camera will still stand out and be able to take better images than an M can today. Iconic, niche, individualistic. A great product and wonderful marketing tool. I've said before and I will again. Change the M rangefinder at your peril. Its been tried before and failed. We do not learn from history because we aways know better this time. Always. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted July 10, 2018 Share #432 Posted July 10, 2018 Two great posts Paul . . and Uli, as I understood it they were looking to see if it were possible to make a good hybrid viewfinder . . . and the upshot was that it would always represent a compromise. Better to produce two cameras, one with a proper rangefinder, an the other with a great EVF . . but better still just produce one camera with a perfect rangefinder. . . and a perfect plug in EVF (one day I hope) 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 10, 2018 Share #433 Posted July 10, 2018 You have to consider that the M – and that includes a hypothetical M11 – is a manual focus camera. There are some really good electronic viewfinders out there and Leica has built some of the best, but the real question is this: Can Leica develop an electronic viewfinder that supports fast and accurate manual focusing, rivalling a rangefinder? Only if the answer is ‘yes’ would a non-rangefinder M be an option. (And btw, no more curved sensor nonsense please. Curved sensors do have their advantages and there are application areas where the can excel, but this isn’t one of those.) 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 10, 2018 Share #434 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) (And btw, no more curved sensor nonsense please. Curved sensors do have their advantages and there are application areas where the can excel, but this isn’t one of those.) Wasn't there a curved field 'Colourplan CF' lens from Leica for projecting 'popped' transparencies? Not so good for mixing ordinarily and glass mounted slides together in one slide show though. Same applies today I expect . Edited July 10, 2018 by pgk Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted July 10, 2018 Share #435 Posted July 10, 2018 ... Change the M rangefinder at your peril. Its been tried before and failed. We do not learn from history because we aways know better this time. Always. The M3 has my favorite finder. They changed it by constructing a new one for the M2. If they had maintained the M3-finder, Leica would have ceased to exist as a camera maker. They changed the original M2-finder by adding frames, they changed it for the M and again for the M10. Recently I tried to use the EVF a lot with wide angle lenses. I am rather sure that I‘ll stick to the optical finder, even if I have to use an additional one in the hotshoe. For 135mm the EVF is clearly the better solution than the optical finder. Other users may think different. They offered the M3 and the M2 side by side successfully for 8 years, the M7 and the MP side by side for 16 years. If a hybrid finder does not work, why not offer an Mxx with optical finder side by side with an Myy with electronic finder? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 10, 2018 Share #436 Posted July 10, 2018 The M3 has my favorite finder. They changed it by constructing a new one for the M2. If they had maintained the M3-finder, Leica would have ceased to exist as a camera maker. They changed the original M2-finder by adding frames, they changed it for the M and again for the M10. But they were all optical viewfinders - the base concept hadn't changed but its implementation had. An EVF is a completely different concept altogether and whilst it might potentially mimick an OVF (which seems pointless when an OVF is quite viable as it is) it could also totally change its operation. And either way it still does not solve the data transfer problem which is the M's Achillies' Heel for updating it digitally. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted July 10, 2018 Share #437 Posted July 10, 2018 ...Can Leica develop an electronic viewfinder that supports fast and accurate manual focusing, rivalling a rangefinder? Only if the answer is ‘yes’ would a non-rangefinder M be an option.... The present EVF-options for the M (Typ 240) and the M10 already are faster and more precise for those lenses which are difficult to focus with the optical finder: 2/90mm and anything longer; I havn‘t used the 75mm Noctilux, but I am sure the EVF is better for it as well. The fact that they presented this lens (and a 1.5/90 still in the rumors) indicates rather clearly which direction they a looking for. For shorter lenses a future in-built EVF in an M body needs to have better resolution, better discernment of focus and of course less time lag. This doesn‘t seem to be impossible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 10, 2018 Share #438 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) My neighbor reminded me of a dividing line between best-tech and visceral joy: His wife hates Porsche manual shift. He loves it because it keeps her from driving it. There is a correlation between Leica M users and the whiners for more automation. Edited July 10, 2018 by pico 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkmoore Posted July 11, 2018 Share #439 Posted July 11, 2018 The real problem is of course that professionals are not really a commercially interesting customer group for a camera maker. Too few, and not as easily spending as the affluent amateur. Great for marketing purposes, though, if they are well-known. In the US in particular Leica should advertise with a few select celebrities that are into photography. They sort of did this with Lenny Kravitz but he hasn't been in the lime light really for 10 years. There are quite a few A listers like Brad Pitt and others that actually use (or just own) Leica cameras. This would benefit all lovers of Leica on many levels. It would certainly benefit Leica in what we perceive to be their niche. There marketing department must be in another time zone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkmoore Posted July 11, 2018 Share #440 Posted July 11, 2018 Two great posts Paul . . and Uli, as I understood it they were looking to see if it were possible to make a good hybrid viewfinder . . . and the upshot was that it would always represent a compromise. Better to produce two cameras, one with a proper rangefinder, an the other with a great EVF . . but better still just produce one camera with a perfect rangefinder. . . and a perfect plug in EVF (one day I hope) I don't understand the economy of scales of Leica but would it really be that difficult for them to make both? It seems a better investment than the CL (in today's market). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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