M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[magixaxeman]

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No rangefinder? it's not an M then.

[Paulus]

No rangefinder? it's not an M then.

 

You are so right! 

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[Jeff S]

The optical viewfinder is an anachronism. There's every reason to go with a high resolution EVF and zero reasons not to. Today's EVFs are superior in every way that matters for nailing the shot with every click of the shutter.

 

There’s ‘nailing the shot’, and then there’s enjoying the viewing experience. You missed THE key reason for my preferring the OVF.

 

Jeff

Edited October 6, 2018 by Jeff S

[IkarusJohn]

Well, by the same token, the M mount itself is an anachronism.

 

Global shutters (when they become cost effective and technically feasible in a compact M body), built in EVF, IBIS and articulated LCD would all be better in an L mount camera, and be done with it.

 

You could then use your M lenses with an adapter. I’m not saying M means messucher or anything like that - just asking what’s the point?

[Paulus]

E.P.: "I have not made any tests yet, but I have a hunch that rangefinder focusing with such a fine rangefinder might actually be more accurate than current autofocus systems, particularly with wide angle lenses.On the other hand, if you are the type of person who appreciates design, quality, uniqueness and craftsmanship and you enjoy developing your skills as a photographer I can think of no more delicious piece of equipment to have in your hands than the new Leica M." 

[Keith_W]

By the time the M11 comes out, the global shutter will be a standard feature of high-end cameras. Leica will simply have to get with the program.

 

The optical viewfinder is an anachronism. There's every reason to go with a high resolution EVF and zero reasons not to. Today's EVFs are superior in every way that matters for nailing the shot with every click of the shutter.

 

No one ever said that being the best was easy. If Leica still has what it takes to be the best they'll figure out a way to integrate IBIS into a digital M. Either that or others will eat their lunch. Simple as that.

 

When Leica introduced the rangefinder in 1932 that was considered heresy, too. Anyone who does street photography recognizes the advantage of having an articulated LCD that allows you to shoot discretely without having to hold the camera up to your face. It's time for Leica to fully leverage the advantages of digital photography and give photographers the best camera possible.

 

I agree with you so much. Leica should consider making two versions, one with a rangefinder, and a "modern" version with an EVF. The EVF version will be cheaper, lighter, and more compact. Or they could use the extra space for a larger battery and/or IBIS. And to avoid all the complaints that "M" stands for "messucher", they could say that henceforth "M" means "Manual Focus". 

[SMAL]

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If you want an EVF, buy an SL. It’s the one with the highest resolution on the market. The M system is simply not meant for this.

[indergaard]

I agree with you so much. Leica should consider making two versions, one with a rangefinder, and a "modern" version with an EVF. The EVF version will be cheaper, lighter, and more compact. Or they could use the extra space for a larger battery and/or IBIS. And to avoid all the complaints that "M" stands for "messucher", they could say that henceforth "M" means "Manual Focus". 

 

 

IBIS won't work with the micro-lens array that Leica uses on their filter stacks. Move the micro-lenses around and they can't correct the ray angles and the issues caused by the lenses designed for film.

 

Also, due to the flange distance of the M-mount and the expected compactness of the camera body, there is simply no space (depth-wise) for an IBIS module, unless the camera itself is made noticeably thicker again. It would probably have to be thicker than the M240 to offer this - simply due to the deep flange distance, which forces the placement of the sensor to be deep inside the camera, unlike all other modern systems which has the sensor more or less in the middle, or in the front, of the camera body. This helps with cooling and placement of IBIS modules and articulating LCD's.

Edited October 7, 2018 by indergaard

[Paulus]

Nice article about the swing to mirorless cameras :

 

https://www.foto-schuhmacher.de/artikel/hardware/der-migrationspfad-der-kamerahersteller-zu-spiegellosen-systemen.html#ndld

 

Maybe, Leica should just stop developing for 5 years , selling a lot of M 10's and stay in the race as a camera firm. Like the saying about the cars. " In future there will be worldwide only room for 3 to 5 car manufacturers...and Porsche. " As long as a firm like Leica doesn't shoot oneselve in the foot, it will survive between the giants because of it's special brand.

 

 

 

"Eigentlich gilt für Leica dasselbe, was man Jahrzehnte lange über die Autoindustrie und Porsche sagte: „Es werden weltweit maximal 3-5 Autohersteller überleben - und Porsche”.

 

Just make pictures with the M10 ( and please an M10 Monochrom ) and this will be good enough for the coming years for all. 

 

Although I was wrong about this more often: 

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/196962-the-average-aged-wont-buy-a-m240/

[wlaidlaw]

Paulus as both a Leica and Porsche enthusiast I agree with a lot of what you say. It should be noted however that as a percentage of their turnover, Porsche's R&D spend is just about the highest in the industry and it shows. I have owned 911 cars off and on for over 40 years and as each generation comes along, you think: "Well it can only be a marginal improvement on what has gone before because there just isn't that much room for improvement." But I have always been wrong. Each generation has been a big leap on from what went before. So far Leica has managed to do something similar but they do need to keep up the momentum (and the R&D spend which leads to that). 

 

All that said, when I go back and drive my 1977 Porsche 911 Group B rally car, although it is crude, rough and extremely noisy, in a way it is more fun that a modern Porsche, mostly because it is far more challenging to drive. Similarly, the two Leicas I currently enjoy using most are my 1937 IIIa and 1972 M4-P because of the challenge they present. If Leica over automate and simplify the use of the M11, they will lose a lot of its charm. Leica already produce two very automated and advanced cameras, the SL and CL. The M11 needs to offer something that is capable of producing the very best images but takes rather more effort to do so. 

 

Wilson

[pico]

I must say that having used rangefinders, mostly Leicas since 1965 and now having an M10 with Visoflex, the RF seems dark, but focusing with the RF, then checking with the Visofex, I am still right on focus!

[garygraphy]

Hearsay - they are playing around with introducing a film advance lever onto a digital M. It is uncertain which model it may introduced in - could be a MD type model, which may also find it way to the M11. 

 

Also, they are evaluating what function to assign to the lever. While it is potentially aesthetically pleasing, it has to serve a greater function to provide a better UX.

[Paulus]

Hearsay - they are playing around with introducing a film advance lever onto a digital M. It is uncertain which model it may introduced in - could be a MD type model, which may also find it way to the M11. 

 

Also, they are evaluating what function to assign to the lever. While it is potentially aesthetically pleasing, it has to serve a greater function to provide a better UX.

 

If it is used to advance film, i's ok with me. Otherwise, it's just an artificial way of nostalgia. Personally I never missed the advance lever in the M8,9,240,10.It beats IMHO the motodrive of the M6 in weight and volume. 

[wlaidlaw]

If it is used to advance film, i's ok with me. Otherwise, it's just an artificial way of nostalgia. Personally I never missed the advance lever in the M8,9,240,10.It beats IMHO the motodrive of the M6 in weight and volume. 

 

Hear hear. I have a very arthritic right thumb and struggle with a lever wind. Even on my film Leicas, I use MOOLY, M4-2 Winder and Motor-M whenever possible. A lever wind on a digital idea is like putting a starting crank handle on a Tesla. 

 

Wilson

[frperdurabo]

I would like a larger sensor say CMOS 30MP.

This would increase resolution, dynamic range and hopefully cut noise...

Albert     

Doubt it will ever happen.  Probably because the rangefinder isn't accurate enough for high-res.

[jaapv]

That would rule out all hi-res DSLRs. Up to 90 mm a rangefinder is more accurate than an SLR.

However, hand-held action/street/travel photography does not really benefit from higher resolutions, in fact it may even be more difficult. And that is the territory of the Leica M.

[cp995]

If you want an EVF, buy an SL. It’s the one with the highest resolution on the market. The M system is simply not meant for this.

 

My opinion too, a Leica M should be as the M10 is today, reduced to "Das Wesentliche".

Therfore it is enough to bring a new M-model every 4-5 years.

 

Tech- and Toy-stuff can be put into the L-Mount systems.

LIke to see the new alliance bringing great new products!

Edited October 8, 2018 by cp995

[indergaard]

Doubt it will ever happen.  Probably because the rangefinder isn't accurate enough for high-res.

 

Which is why I hope for a version of the M based on EVF tech. Having tried the Leica ASPH optics on high res sensors, it's clear that the lenses are up to the task. But it requires a sensor with microlenses and an optimal filter stack to work. As you say, the limit isn't the lenses, it's rather the rangefinder mechanism and tolerances that's the difficult part to keep accurate enough.

[jaapv]

I find the limit of the rangefinder system is in the eyesight and technique of the photographer, not in the mechanism itself. At  50 mm it is twice as accurate as an SLR, and a magnitude more so than focus peaking.

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[jaeger]

I have 2 wishes for the future Ms.

#1 I wish new M has electronic shutter instead of mechanical curtain shutter which should takes care of the LV or EVF open & close curtain time lag.  The camera will be completely silent. The TTL readings (not just for flash) are more accurate and consistent.  Space saving, lighter, more compact camera and eventually money savings too. 

#2 The more I use M, and more I understand the philosophy of the machine.  The rangefinder is actually very unique but it seems like only work for wide to 50mm lenses.  Currently focusing any focal length greater than 50mm OR using summilux or Noctilux at wide opened aperture are almost by luck.  Thus, I think adding an internal super magnifier, that auto kicks-in when focusing would be helpful.  The magnifying triggers by moving the focusing ring and when stop focusing it goes un-magnified for framing which works very similar to peaking in LV.  The magnifier is not just 1.4x, I am talking about 4x, 5x or even more that we can focus on eyelashes.