jonatdonuts Posted August 29, 2018 Share #501 Posted August 29, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Speaking of PhaseOne today: 150 megapixels for just USD 52k. Absolute bargain... https://www.techradar.com/news/phase-one-launches-150-megapixel-iq4-camera-system It’s pixel size, rather than number of pixels which puts pressure on technique. A large sensor, with the same pixel density as the 24MP sensor in the M10 demands no greater shooting technique. Conversely, increase the density, smaller photo sites, greater risk of blur.I have nothing against more MP - but I have nothing for it, either. I don’t really see a benefit, and I don’t like the cost. 100MP would be nice, but I’d only consider it with a large sensor like the Phase One. Still buying my Lotto tickets ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 Hi jonatdonuts, Take a look here M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted August 29, 2018 Share #502 Posted August 29, 2018 Bargain! I’ll have 3. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted August 29, 2018 Share #503 Posted August 29, 2018 The M as a concept is quite mature. From here on we will see little evolutionary tweaks. What needs improvement is the sensor. The sensor will come into its own when it reaches 42mp along with 12800 usable ISO and matching microlenses on sensor. In true Leica fashion this should arrive with the M12 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raid Amin Posted August 30, 2018 Share #504 Posted August 30, 2018 Since everybody is having wishes here, I want the M11 not only to be for free, Leica will pay me $10,000 to accept this camera as a gift. I can dream! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted August 30, 2018 Share #505 Posted August 30, 2018 Since everybody is having wishes here, I want the M11 not only to be for free, Leica will pay me $10,000 to accept this camera as a gift. I can dream! That’s not a dream. It’s a hallucination. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted September 30, 2018 Share #506 Posted September 30, 2018 (edited) I don't buy into the "expensive" bit. Firstly they are a professional tool, which means that they are a business expense written off against taxes. Yes, they are a tax write-off if you are a business, but it's not like you are going to get a refund check from the government for your M gear. Secondly they are in the same price bracket as other high-end cameras by Nikon and Canon, that are regularly used by professional photographers. Yes, they are all very expensive cameras, but the M10 is a specialized tool, whereas the Nikon and EOS can do pretty much anything from sports to macro work to pay the bills. So, that's an awful lot of money for a working photographer to spend on a specialized tool. Leica M10 - $7295 Nikon D5 - $6495 EOS 1DX Mk II - $5499 Here's the thing. The vast majority of working photographers and journalists use the cheaper and much smaller D750/8xx and Canon 5d bodies. A lot of them have actually switched to mirrorless, because of the need for video. There are a few other things to keep in mind. Most D5/1Dx are equipped with a zoom like a 24-70. The press is kept further away these days so, you'll also see a lot of 80-200 zooms. The M series uses primes, so you need multiple bodies, because you are not going to juggle lenses in the middle of a shoot. In the films days most shooters carried 2-3 M bodies with 28/35/50 and a SLR with something like an 85/180/200mm. Backup bodies. Most D5/1Dx shooters have a much cheaper D750/850 or 5d mark 3 in the bag as a backup. Sometimes even a cheap consumer grade DSLR. Buying a second M10/240 as a backup body is an expensive outlay. expensive. If you really were doing this professionally you would probably want 3-4 M10 bodies. That's about $30k, before you buy batteries at $200 a pop. Thirdly they fetch more money when sold off than other cameras. As a net cost it won't make much difference to the bottom line. I doubt that anyone is going to pay much for a beat up M10 after 3 years of non-stop use, unless it belonged to someone famous. Remember, this is a camera where many people won't even remove the cover sticker from the baseplate and spend +$200 on a custom leather case. I don't think an M camera is delicate at all. I have used them in conditions that break cameras and the survival rate was as good or better than the Canons and Nikons used by others. Nor is all PJ work that hard on man and machine. No, offense Jaap, but I highly doubt you put your gear through the ringer like a pro does who carries it around daily and it's in and out of the bag a dozen times and sometimes even getting banged up, rained on etc. The big Canon and Nikon bodies are mostly thick, cast magnesium. The M shell is magnesium, but the top plate is relatively thin brass. The point is really the lack of functionality. They simply lack many features that professionals need in present-day photography, not just long lenses. And Leica has thrown the towel in that respect. I fully agree on that. But that said I still believe that there is a place for the M as a working professional tool. When shooting in controlled, intimate situations the M can't be beat in terms of discretion and charm. You just have to make sure your assignments can cover a good $30-50k investment for 2-4 bodies, batteries and lenses. Edited October 1, 2018 by thrid 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted October 1, 2018 Share #507 Posted October 1, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) - A modern and very accurate matrix metering system. Maybe meter off the prism block of the RF unit. Heck I would even go for a retracting lollipop like the M5 had to get matrix metering in the next M. - 24MP sensor with dual gain readout for improved dynamic range and a butter smooth film like roll off in the highlights. Then make a monochrome version. If anyone at Leica is reading this, maybe give the folks at Arri a call down in Munich and take a peek at the Arri Alexa sensor. That's about it. I'd like for it to be cheaper, but I know that's a pipe dream, so never mind. Just give me the above. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDOC Posted October 1, 2018 Share #508 Posted October 1, 2018 M11 wish list: Spirit level Global electronic shutter Built-in EVF (they can still keep the rangefinder for the nostalgia crowd) IBIS (long overdue) higher-than-24MP resolution (I'd settle for 36MP) articulated LCD Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
indergaard Posted October 1, 2018 Share #509 Posted October 1, 2018 M11 wish list: Spirit level Global electronic shutter Built-in EVF (they can still keep the rangefinder for the nostalgia crowd) IBIS (long overdue) higher-than-24MP resolution (I'd settle for 36MP) articulated LCD Spirit level is in the M10-P. Global electronic shutter - ha - dream on. Maybe in the M15. Built-in EVF: The two, by far, primary reasons most people purchase an M is the for lenses and for the optical rangefinder. Enough said. IBIS - dream on. The M-mount is 44mm in diameter. The M lenses has weird ray angles. To compensate for this, the sensors in the M's uses micro-lenses in the outer zones to achieve good corner quality. All of this doesn't sound like it would play well with a 5-axis moving sensor. Higher than 24MP would be nice. Personally I would prefer around 30-35MP. An articulated LCD on an M is pure heresy. You might as well ask for the bottom plate to be removed 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted October 2, 2018 Share #510 Posted October 2, 2018 Bargain! I’ll have 3. Are you intending to set them up together for the 450MP landscape? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 2, 2018 Share #511 Posted October 2, 2018 No, offense Jaap, but I highly doubt you put your gear through the ringer like a pro does who carries it around daily and it's in and out of the bag a dozen times and sometimes even getting banged up, rained on etc. The big Canon and Nikon bodies are mostly thick, cast magnesium. The M shell is magnesium, but the top plate is relatively thin brass. Have you ever thrown an M off a six-meter cliff to land on the rocks? I have. An M8. There was only one thing that took it out: The shutter was jammed. The rest of the damage would not have stopped it working: RF slightly off vertically, dent in the top plate, dent in the bottom plate, crack in the bodyshell (not noticeable from the outside}, lens unmarked but focus ring welded. The top plate, which took the full force, was not dented more than a couple of mms. I have a strong suspiscion that many other cameras would not have been more than a collection of bits and pieces. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted October 2, 2018 Share #512 Posted October 2, 2018 Have you ever thrown an M off a six-meter cliff to land on the rocks? I have. An M8. There was only one thing that took it out: The shutter was jammed. The rest of the damage would not have stopped it working: RF slightly off vertically, dent in the top plate, dent in the bottom plate, crack in the bodyshell (not noticeable from the outside}, lens unmarked but focus ring welded. The top plate, which took the full force, was not dented more than a couple of mms. I have a strong suspiscion that many other cameras would not have been more than a collection of bits and pieces. I dropped my M6ttl down a flight of concrete stairs near the German Museum in Munich. Cracked the body shell at the 12 o'clock position of the mount. RF knocked out of alignment. That was about 10 years ago. Sherry Krauter brought the camera back from the dead and I still shoot with it. Lens ok. The strap on one of my M4 bodies got caught on a door and yanked out of my hand. Landed on the corner near the frame counter and crushed the top plate. Some internal damage to a spindle, frame advance and frame counter, plus a new top plate. Summicron DR was fine. It cost almost as much to fix the camera as it is worth, but I've had it for 20 years and wasn't about to junk it. Still shoot it today. Dropped the original Canon 1D down a rocky hillside in California desert. Poured a canteen of water over it to get the dust off and kept shooting. The 50mm prime did get trashed, but it was plastic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted October 2, 2018 Share #513 Posted October 2, 2018 Add video only if the camera is no bigger. Video needs auto focus when the vid is being recorded. That ushers in some nice big fat M lenses to accomplish that. Video Really!!! Lets not turn a near perfect tool into some neither fish nor fowl machine that does nothing well. Vid can be done with the cell phone. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
indergaard Posted October 3, 2018 Share #514 Posted October 3, 2018 Add video only if the camera is no bigger. Video needs auto focus when the vid is being recorded. That ushers in some nice big fat M lenses to accomplish that. Video Really!!! Lets not turn a near perfect tool into some neither fish nor fowl machine that does nothing well. Vid can be done with the cell phone. Video on a cell phone doesn't work in low light. Doesn't allow for interchangeable lenses. Doesn't allow for a cinematic look with shallow depth of field. Doesn't create files that are friendly to color grading. Doesn't record with any log profile to control light in scenes with lots of contrast. Doesn't allow you to plug a good microphone into it. Doesn't allow you to use wireless mics. I can go on... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted October 3, 2018 Share #515 Posted October 3, 2018 You don’t know modern cell phones. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raid Amin Posted October 3, 2018 Share #516 Posted October 3, 2018 Yes, but most photographers hallucinate about Leica gear. That’s not a dream. It’s a hallucination. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted October 3, 2018 Share #517 Posted October 3, 2018 Yes, but most photographers hallucinate about Leica gear. And we buy them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 3, 2018 Share #518 Posted October 3, 2018 I dropped my M6ttl down a flight of concrete stairs near the German Museum in Munich. Cracked the body shell at the 12 o'clock position of the mount. RF knocked out of alignment. That was about 10 years ago. Sherry Krauter brought the camera back from the dead and I still shoot with it. Lens ok. The strap on one of my M4 bodies got caught on a door and yanked out of my hand. Landed on the corner near the frame counter and crushed the top plate. Some internal damage to a spindle, frame advance and frame counter, plus a new top plate. Summicron DR was fine. It cost almost as much to fix the camera as it is worth, but I've had it for 20 years and wasn't about to junk it. Still shoot it today. Dropped the original Canon 1D down a rocky hillside in California desert. Poured a canteen of water over it to get the dust off and kept shooting. The 50mm prime did get trashed, but it was plastic. Ah - the 1D. They don't build them like that any more. Quite suitable to be used as a Knobkerrie... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDOC Posted October 6, 2018 Share #519 Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) Global electronic shutter - ha - dream on. Maybe in the M15. Built-in EVF: The two, by far, primary reasons most people purchase an M is the for lenses and for the optical rangefinder. Enough said. IBIS - dream on. The M-mount is 44mm in diameter. The M lenses has weird ray angles. To compensate for this, the sensors in the M's uses micro-lenses in the outer zones to achieve good corner quality. All of this doesn't sound like it would play well with a 5-axis moving sensor. An articulated LCD on an M is pure heresy. You might as well ask for the bottom plate to be removed By the time the M11 comes out, the global shutter will be a standard feature of high-end cameras. Leica will simply have to get with the program. The optical viewfinder is an anachronism. There's every reason to go with a high resolution EVF and zero reasons not to. Today's EVFs are superior in every way that matters for nailing the shot with every click of the shutter. No one ever said that being the best was easy. If Leica still has what it takes to be the best they'll figure out a way to integrate IBIS into a digital M. Either that or others will eat their lunch. Simple as that. When Leica introduced the rangefinder in 1932 that was considered heresy, too. Anyone who does street photography recognizes the advantage of having an articulated LCD that allows you to shoot discretely without having to hold the camera up to your face. It's time for Leica to fully leverage the advantages of digital photography and give photographers the best camera possible. Edited October 6, 2018 by NDOC 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted October 6, 2018 Author Share #520 Posted October 6, 2018 By the time the M11 comes out, the global shutter will be a standard feature of high-end cameras. Leica will simply have to get with the program. The optical viewfinder is an anachronism. There's every reason to go with a high resolution EVF and zero reasons not to. Today's EVFs are superior in every way that matters for nailing the shot with every click of the shutter. No one ever said that being the best was easy. If Leica still has what it takes to be the best they'll figure out a way to integrate IBIS into a digital M. Either that or others will eat their lunch. Simple as that. When Leica introduced the rangefinder in 1932 that was considered heresy, too. Anyone who does street photography recognizes the advantage of having an articulated LCD that allows you to shoot discretely without having to hold the camera up to your face. It's time for Leica to fully leverage the advantages of digital photography and give photographers the best camera possible. If the optic viewfinder disappears , for me, there is really no reason to buy an M11. I played with an Fuji X pro 2 these days. I thought it a little frustrating. In dutch we have an expression which translates: " you would want it to happen, but you just don'treally succeed " ( wel willen maar niet kunnen ) Until a viewfinder appears where you could not see the difference with the optical but in my view, this will not happen soon. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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