M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[M11 for me]

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When I compare the results in terms of sharpness and colors and beauty of my M10 compared to 5D Mk IV then I whish that in an M11 we just will see minor improvements. The M renders much nicer than the Canon. Therefor I do not expect IBIS or EVF and many other features that are described here. If we expect to have a bunch of new features then Leica has already the CL (and for many situations an APSxC sensor might do an excellent job) as a small camera that is easy to be carried around.

 

The M I can have with me permanently. I love it. And last weekend I was at a musical event and took photographs of bands in action that turned out great. It was the first time that I took my M to such an event. Before it was always the DSLR with the heavy 70-200 and 24-70 both 2.8. As I could go near to the musicians there was no need for zooms. And I was very pleased with the focus. Please Leica continue that road.

 

And by the way. I have still my Canon A1 from the 80ies. How small it was and how small the lenses. Over the last 30 years everything was blown up with technology and functions and thats where we stand now with huge bodies and heavy lenses. I don‘t like to carry that any more.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Alex U.

[roelv1]

When I compare the results in terms of sharpness and colors and beauty of my M10 compared to 5D Mk IV then I whish that in an M11 we just will see minor improvements. The M renders much nicer than the Canon. Therefor I do not expect IBIS or EVF and many other features that are described here. If we expect to have a bunch of new features then Leica has already the CL (and for many situations an APSxC sensor might do an excellent job) as a small camera that is easy to be carried around.

 

The M I can have with me permanently. I love it. And last weekend I was at a musical event and took photographs of bands in action that turned out great. It was the first time that I took my M to such an event. Before it was always the DSLR with the heavy 70-200 and 24-70 both 2.8. As I could go near to the musicians there was no need for zooms. And I was very pleased with the focus. Please Leica continue that road.

 

And by the way. I have still my Canon A1 from the 80ies. How small it was and how small the lenses. Over the last 30 years everything was blown up with technology and functions and thats where we stand now with huge bodies and heavy lenses. I don‘t like to carry that any more.

 

Oh sure. The M 10 renders more beautifully than the Canon. And the M system has absolutely its advantages, like the splendid OVF, its size and so on, and terrific lenses. I always loved the system and all of the work on my website ( made for magazines) has been made with M cameras. Until now the M 10 is the best of them all( digital). No question. But the market has changed. In these days we need more and more camera's with more possibilities than what the M can offer. If a pro photographer has the money to use the M10 system alongside his cameras for regular work, do it. (The argument of losing video is marginal, because the M 240 was so so in that and there are better options)  The M10 remains a very special camera that can deliver beautiful results! Kind regards. http://www.roelvisser.nl      

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[M11 for me]

What I am a bit worried about is where Leica strategically wants to go. Leica watches. Oh my goodness. Will they be an accessory brand in a few years? Its a bit the question if the marketeers or the engineers win. Or what the top management has as a strategy. I do not know all of this.

 

After all Leica has to offer its customers what these customers buy in sufficient quantities. This said I hope that in the future still a lot of people (in the hobby area mostly) still like the size and the shape of that splendid camera. And as one has to be a bit experienced to be able to photograph with such a simplistic tool, Leica customers are not just the ones that go for nothing else than the red dot (some certainly do). So there is still some hope that the M concept survives the next decade. What seems to me to be a great help for the M is the fact that more and more people feel that full format DSLRs are much too big and too heavy. So either the camera market disappears or when it survives (against mobile phones or whatever) then the M has its niche in the market. I believe in the latter.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Alex U.

[AdamSinger]

That is true - on the other hand the question is whether the reason that journalists don't use the M so much any more is a question of price. I think, that for professional use the question is more one of suitability, after all, after writeoff against taxes there is not much price difference to high-end DSLRs - and Leica has lost the connection to its reportage roots in the M series.

Nowadays it is a camera for affluent amateurs who want to buy into a "philosophy" or like to show off the retro styling, not because it is the superb tool that it could be and has been, and which was the reason I have used it for decades. As you say, there are better tools now, and my M cameras are gathering dust or are special-purpose, like the Monochrom for B&W, or the M9 for my SuperElmar 18.

 

I think the M240 was a d@mned good attempt to bring the M concept into the 21st century and it could have been a seminal camera, had they continued on that road.

With the M10, impressive as it is from an engineerig point of view, they have backed themselves into an ever shrinking niche. The only way they can go now is tinkering with incremental upgrades, and I'm sure they will.

 

The future for Leica, however,  are the SL and CL, even Q, the M will fade away over time.

I so agree, permit me another spin

 

Every year the Leica management has an away day. (Yes I am making this up but chances are its true) You know away-days , when the outside facilitator at the white board asks, “if we were an animal what kind of animal would it be ?" The head of engineering "says we would be an ant eater, as nothing is better designed to maximise the fundamentals of its ecological niche”. The guy from marketing looking for a promotion and it would be guy, no woman would be this dumb, says; “We are a cheetah lean agile, fast top of the food chain, a prey pursuing beast” . The head of special editions says " we are a dung beetle extracting the last drop of value from what was a mouthwatering morsel and is now a turd.”

 

The representative of the owners sits there and smiles 'cause they know the real answer. "Colleagues you exist to maximise asset value, photographic equipment is but the vehicle we use to increase the worth of the brand. As the brand value rises , and its halo gets stronger; thus we become a luxury goods company, and make watches, and license our name to mobile phone makers. It is crucial to maintain quality, and be the Louis Vuitton of Cameras, and here the 75mm Noctilux plays a similar role to the Ferrari Aperta, proof that we can build the ultimate, and thus burnish the halo, oh and what is a CRF? "

 

I believe the private equity players in Leica love the product and the heritage, but dream of selling to Richemont, or its equivalent, lets hope Zeiss put in a better offer. ( I may be out of date here and if so apologise).Nothing illustrates this more than Leica’s acknowledgement that mono brand retail - to wit the Leica Store- especially in China has been a key driver. This is the Apple, Louis Vuitton or Hermes strategy. Thus a Leica is to photography what a Rolex is to telling the time. ( I know that a Leica lens adds to your creativity in a way that wearing Rolex does not add to your ability to tell the time, but this is a directional statement not science) In other word where Leica once made a leading photographic tool in the 30s 40s and 50s it now makes a leading photographic luxury item. Its a luxury brand like Ferrari, and no one needs a Ferrari, you may want it but you don't need it. Thus Leica has moved from need to want.

 

The key question for Leica's owners is exit strategy, how and when do they sell, how to do they get the maximum multiple on their efforts.

This is not cynicism, but as some someone who sadly has spent more time in meetings than behind a Leica I know this is what institutional investors want and as some one who now lives on their pension I want those who manage my pension to extract the greatest value. So at the pension level I care about what ever strategy delivers the best exit value. ( now this may mean long term investment or not). Into this the M debate falls.

 

Leica has not managed to get away from the M3. The Reflexes were good but too late and the market had gone, the M5 was the best, but being cutting edge CRF was by the 1970s an anachronistic thought in its own right, and the digital Ms are an M3 with a digital sensor, and limited wiggle room for CRF improvement. The SL good though it be, is doomed to be a minor product, (IMO its ugly and its mother dresses it funny. I had one, great camera sold it for the M10, as I looked so much cooler carrying the M10 (not serious) . And the top plate profile of the CL is a mess all making that the point that the M3 just looked right, and thus was right . Leica is not the only company fenced by heritage think Porsche and the 911 shape. Zeiss too from 1950 to the 70s was trapped in a camera ethos that was lagging behind the world they lived in, then they realised what they really did and stuck to glass.

 

The nightmare ‘gedanken’ (thoughts ) for Leica must be what happens if the Sony A7 iterates ( and the operative word is iterate not one's current perceptions of Sony products ) into an act of M3 rivalling 21st century mirrorless marvel of haptics that can emulate the Leica look , takes Leica lenses and is half the price, then the only reason for a new Lecia is the feel good of a luxury product.

 

The ghastly truth is that in in product terms (and here I mean sensor platforms not lenses ) Leica has been managing decline since 1959 (arrival of Nikon F) they have managed to plateau out with the M9 240 10 et al. But the M will go on, or some camera that looks like an M as that is where the heritage of brand value lies, and strangely the camera, the sensor platform that may last longest is the MA, as even if Leica looses money on it they can monetise it through the lustre it adds to the brand, …….."yeah Man its like a Vinyl Leica !"

 

If you have been gracious enough to read thus far the point is merely that the M whither debate is not just technical.

Edited July 8, 2018 by AdamSinger

[M11 for me]

Well, well. First Leica operates quite profitably and the actual owner is not known for VERY short profits. Thats what I read and hear anyway. Maybe I am fully naive.

[AdamSinger]

its not about annual profits, but company value, and how the M fits into that

Edited July 8, 2018 by AdamSinger

[jaapv]

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The position of the M is: It is Leica's iconic signature camera and defines the company image since 1954. They cannot afford to drop it. Read Carl Jung.

They did so once with the M5 and were forced to reintroduce it double-quick.

[M11 for me]

The position of the M is: It is Leica's iconic signature camera and defines the company image since 1954. They cannot afford to drop it. Read Carl Jung.

They did so once with the M5 and were forced to reintroduce it double-quick.

Lets hope that you are right. But to me its plausible as well. The buyers are never fully rational. Think of the survival of the mechanical watch. My feeling is that the M will be here for an other long time. Wohever the owner will be in the future.

[jaapv]

Agree, but the niche will shrink. No matter, they still build film Ms

[Eoin]

I'm just happy Leica is being run by people who produce product I actually want to buy and enjoy using.

[evikne]

I think its a miracle that we still can buy rangefinder cameras, with new, digital technology, and use them directly with old and new lenses. 

 

I really hope Leica will continue to make M cameras for many, many years yet!

Edited July 8, 2018 by evikne

[eraydinc]

We don’t have to wait video mode for m11. We have so fast hot shoe and they can make Visoflex Pro with video capture and with some USB ports and Microphone jack together. Visoflex Pro also should included with REC button.

[jmahto]

We don’t have to wait video mode for m11. We have so fast hot shoe and they can make Visoflex Pro with video capture and with some USB ports and Microphone jack together. Visoflex Pro also should included with REC button.

I like the idea of clipping separate video recording camera on hot shoe.

[Utz Nagal]

I hope, that they make a M11 with a shorter booting time. Two seconds is much too long. Maybe 0.5 seconds would bei okay.

[NDOC]

Leica needs to fully embrace the latest digital technology in their next M and leave behind those features which no longer make sense in the 21st century.

Tradition is fine, but not when it gets in the way of the M11 being the best camera on the market.

 

Here's what I want to see in the M11.

 

1. It's finally time for the rangefinder to go the way of the dodo. It's had its day. Give the M11 a state-of-the-art built-in EVF.

2. Increase the resolution to at least 36MP.

 

3. Increase dynamic range to at least 15 EV.

 

4. In-body image stabilization. PLEASE.

 

5. 4K video capability.

 

6. At least double the battery life.

 

7. An articulated, and larger, rear LCD.

 

8. Internal ND filter.

 

9. Better weather sealing.

 

10. Silent electronic global shutter.

 

11. Curved sensor.

Edited July 9, 2018 by NDOC

[AlanYWM]

A much faster processor so that zooming and reviewing images will not be such a pain - at least for me. Better noise performance and of course I would like to have video function. It is always good to have this option rather than nothing at all. Lastly, a much higher resolution EVF and better power management so that I don't have to carry 2 extra sets of batteries    I know. I am asking a bit too much 

[M11 for me]

Leica needs to fully embrace the latest digital technology in their next M and leave behind those features which no longer make sense in the 21st century.

Tradition is fine, but not when it gets in the way of the M11 being the best camera on the market.

 

Here's what I want to see in the M11.

 

. . . .

 

11. Curved sensor.

You have a great whish list. But with the number 11 I presume that we would need all new lenses.

[dereken]

The position of the M is: It is Leica's iconic signature camera and defines the company image since 1954. They cannot afford to drop it. Read Carl Jung.

They did so once with the M5 and were forced to reintroduce it double-quick.

I'm curious why mention Carl Jung?

 

Leica should definitely introduce another model with an EVF and other modern tech like IBIS, shaped like the Leica Q. It's a shame that the M mount which has some of the best lenses in the world (especially the smallest full frame lenses) ... doesn't have another option for people who want to use the great lenses minus the rangefinder.

 

When I was shooting with my X100, I almost never used the optical viewfinder. Seeing a live view provided too much of an advantage for creative control. 

 

I don't think Leica should stop producing the simple and beautiful M camera. But they should definitely provide another option for people who want to shoot M lenses in a more modern and controlled way. Unfortunately, they probably won't do this because it would eat into M sales (like the old Leica/Minolta CL did before).

 

So using adapters with other full frame mirrorless cameras will be the closest thing we have to this for the near future. Maybe another company like Voigtlander or 7artisans might step in and make this camera...

[ELAN]

Leica should provide two M models because they cannot make an M that satisfies all of the conflicting wishes outlined in this thread.

 

The first (purist) M would be an evolution of the M10, with a better optical viewfinder, sensor and dynamic range, but keeping all of the traditional elements of the M as they are.

 

The second (modern) M model would have an EVF instead of the OVF, video, electronic shutter, image stabilization, tethering, doors instead of the baseplate and made of aluminum.

 

I don't subscribe to the theory that a modern M will cannibalize the purist M, in fact, I think Leica will sell more Ms than they do now by appealing to traditional users, disgruntled users, new users, and by selling both models to some us.

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[strohscw]

Leica should definitely introduce another model with an EVF and other modern tech like IBIS, shaped like the Leica Q. It's a shame that the M mount which has some of the best lenses in the world (especially the smallest full frame lenses) ... doesn't have another option for people who want to use the great lenses minus the rangefinder.

 

 

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