First impressions - M10

[coup de foudre]

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Is Walter Eyepiece still around?

He used to make Leica M eyepieces to your full prescription including astigmatism.

 

 

Please let us know if he's still doing this. Thank you!

[pico]

Pico - Low vision is a broad label.  But, I might comment that anybody having even vision problems like early Macular Degeneration or early Cataract may not be able to detect any change in the RF other than the frame lines are easier to locate (not see) and the eye relief is better.

 

So, in general, I'd say no.  Too subtle of a change for a person with low vision.  Sorry.

 

Folks, RF users really need 20/20 vision or better.  That means very little uncorrected Astigmatism.  Correct glasses or contacts.  Older users need to add +0.50 to their view finder over their distance glasses or contacts.  

 

Rick

 

Thank you, Rick. I was slipping into slight resentment that my optometrists could not help. My feeling was enhanced when I got a new prescription and glasses and brought my M9 to try to show him my situation and he waved me away with, "I don't know anything that would help." I had even considered a monocle that could fit closer to my eye. (I have somewhat deep set eyes and strong brow.) All well now with your affirmation.  

 

BTW - $600 a pair for glasses - and they are not even Leica.

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[cookedart]

More scattered thoughts:

 

• Unfortunate that the M Wifi App is not available for Android (yet). Live view framerate is sluggish on my iPad, and connecting was a little bit dodgy (had to repeatedly tap on the connect button for it to finally start talking to the camera). Allows you to either connect through a wifi base station or use the M10 itself as a base station. No QR code pairing, which I thought was odd, since the Q does this. I haven’t tried wifi over a base station, and to see if the response of the app is better there. It’s certainly not something I would want to use on a client shoot.

• The 6-bit code reader seems a little more sensitive than the m240, I have a few uncoded lenses and going into live view it very occasionally acts like there’s no lens and refuses to shoot. This has even happened with a lens that was coded. Remounting the lens eventually got it to work.

• The Visoflex 020 is less in your way if you shoot back and forth between it and the rangefinder. Since the data port is no longer on the back of the body but on the hot shoe, the EVF sticks out the back of the camera less. It can interfere if you shoot vertically, but if you swivel the EVF out of the way you can very easily shoot the rangefinder without it interfering. Unless of course you are left-eyed where I imagine it would definitely be in your way (and I feel sorry for you).

• The Visoflex 020 completely covers up the left side of the shutter speed dial. This is the issue with using an off-the-shelf part that they had already rather than custom designing and EVF for the M - you can’t see what shutter speed you’re shooting at on the dial. You can find out from the info menu, but this seems like a design oversight. Like many external finders, the EVF should have had a hot shoe offset on an M (and of course like many have said, it should have had the same EVF as the SL). It’s also a slight shame that the eyepoint isn’t high enough to use it more like a waist level.

• I find it fairly easy to accidentally hit the play button. I would probably have preferred the buttons a little smaller. Thankfully none of the buttons can really do anything disastrous, as I’ve found on other systems.

• Seems like the SD card incompatibility thing is real. I personally have a 128gb card that is not recognized in the M (running firmware 1.0.2.0).

• Comes with 90 days of lightroom. Too bad Adobe changed to cloud licensing, as a free copy of lightroom in perpetuity is a better deal for sure.

• I personally find there’s banding in ISO 12500 files. 10000 looks good to go for me though. I particularly find it in dark skies, or areas where there’s not that much light and a large swath of uniform tone. That does mean outdoor shots at 12500 are a no go for me.

• A man from one of the Leica stores recommended I try shoot ISO 16000, black and white, JPEG, with contrast and sharpness at high (in the day). I see what he means, the final look is pretty neat, like a medium grain film. Will play with this a little. Sorry, no samples yet, but just wanted to throw that idea out there to see what others think.

• Finally got GPS working. Not sure what made it kick in. Personally I would love a hot shoe cover that had integrated GPS that I could leave in all the time.

 

Minor things:

• The on off switch is made of a different material than the m240. The m240’s is shinier than the chrome on the top plate, the M10’s matches the same dullness (I’m talking silver chrome here).

• The status LED being on the left side of the camera rather than the right makes it a little harder for me to cover up while shooting. On the m240 is was in a natural spot to cover up with my palm, now I have to consciously do it if I’m in a light sensitive area (obviously you can tape over it, but its also good to have access to it).

• The camera remembers the last item you had selected in the favorites menu, so if you keep hitting the menu button you can change the previous setting easily. If you dive into the main menu it won’t remember the last thing selected, though (it always goes to the first page, top of the list, no matter what you had previously selected). Also, it forgets which thing you have hilighted once you turn off the camera.

[jonoslack]

Pico - Low vision is a broad label.  But, I might comment that anybody having even vision problems like early Macular Degeneration or early Cataract may not be able to detect any change in the RF other than the frame lines are easier to locate (not see) and the eye relief is better.

 

So, in general, I'd say no.  Too subtle of a change for a person with low vision.  Sorry.

 

Folks, RF users really need 20/20 vision or better.  That means very little uncorrected Astigmatism.  Correct glasses or contacts.  Older users need to add +0.50 to their view finder over their distance glasses or contacts.  

 

Rick

 

HI Rick

although I agree with you about almost everything I'm not totally convinced by this - I have early cataracts, which is gradually messing with my contact lens prescription - certainly the 20/20 I had for may years has long since gone. . . . but I can still focus accurately with a rangefinder (and even more so with the M10). . . and I can certainly tell the difference between the new and old RF - even with the contact lenses out.

 

I've been checking this with the Noctilux wide open focusing with the rangefinder and then checking the EVF for accuracy - maybe it's only 70%, but I don't think it was ever better than that. with smaller apertures it's just no problem.

 

I think that a large part of success with rangefinder focusing is practice - if I don't shoot for a week it takes a few hours to get back to where I was - and that really hasn't changed since I DID have 20/20 vision. I guess I'd say that it's like most kinds of fitness - as you get older it's more difficult to get back if you lose it. 

 

Of course, we don't all have time to practice . . but I remember a conversation with Herbert Piel - both of our wives were taking the piss out of us for shooting hundreds of pointless pictures in the kitchen in the evening . . . rangefinder practice. . . . . we can all do that (can't we?)

Edited January 30, 2017 by jonoslack

[Hey You]

I received my M10 on Monday January 23rd, which was good fortune, because I left for Oaxaca on Wednesday 25th.

 

Several points : -

The precision of the build of the M10 is a noticeable improvement over the M240, which was itself impressive.

Before leaving I checked the sensor for dust, and found it immaculate.  This is also an improvement over the M9 and M240, both of which had blotches and needed cleaning.

After several days of shooting, I found the shutter button occasionally soft and unresponsive.  Finally it stopped responding altogether.  

An investigation revealed that it was not the shutter button at all.  The recessed 'dish' around the shutter button had become unscrewed, so much so that it prevented me from depressing the shutter.  Tightened it by hand, and all was OK.

An entire day of shooting - over 300 images, with considerable chimping - left the camera about 30% charged.  Works for me; no need for a backup battery

The viewfinder frame lines are wonderfully clear and bright, and focus does indeed appear to be sharper.

The shutter sound seems slightly louder and sharper than that of the M240

The reduction in thickness of the M10 is definitely noticeable and better.  I began with a CL and then upgraded to an M6, which I loved.

This feels just like an M6, and I have bonded with it.  I never bonded with the M9 or the M240, because of their thickness.

The M10's delay when awakening from sleep seems to be longer than that of the M240.

I love the "Favourites" feature in the Menu.  My four favourites are User Profile, manual ISO, SD Format and Sensor Clean.

Being able to access them directly is an advantage over the M240, where I had to scroll through several menu pages.

I'm also happy with the leather camera strap supplied with the camera.  The length is ideal for me, and the leather softens rapidly.

Image quality?  PDG.

 

In short, one happy camper.

[otto.f]

@cookedart, #103: GPS, could it be that you have to be outside to let it receive signals, like with navigation systems? Mine did not work yet, inside the house.

[cookedart]

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@cookedart, #103: GPS, could it be that you have to be outside to let it receive signals, like with navigation systems? Mine did not work yet, inside the house.

No, I was using it purely outside, sometimes walking around in clear areas for several hours. I finally got it to work today but it only tagged one coordinate before losing a signal.

[chris_tribble]

1.    SETTINGS

-  POSITIVE

.   Menus are intuitive and an improvement on the M-240.  In many ways the best of M-240 and the SL

.   Favourites avoids the double Set / Menu confusion that could happen with the M240 and is much more flexible

.   INFO is clear and quickly available

.   ISO controller is great.  I love being able to see all key settings without having to turn the camera on

.   Single position on/off switch is a major improvement

.   3 buttons works well for me – using Menu to access Play controls is neatly executed

-   ISSUES

.   I would like to have more Review and Live View on screen options.  Particularly Live View + with/without highlight/shadow warning as a toggle.

.   I'd like to have a level indicator if it's possible.  This is a real lack for me.

 

2.    HANDLING

-      POSITIVE

.   Is it an M6, is it an M10?  While I didn't really have a problem with the size and heft of the M-240, this is nicer

.   Now that I've got the thread adaptors, my diopters work perfectly and I'm back in business!

.   The revised RF is a revelation – it's as if you have a brighter crisper panel that slides into place as you focus.  REALLY good.

.   Enhanced view of framelines makes the OVF easier in use

.   Visoflex 020 is worth having.  The blackout is not a major issue for me – and it was with VF-2 on the M-240.  I'm using it with the 21 SEM and 135 Apo-Telyt – though I have been finding that with the 135 focusing is  easier than on any M body I've ever owned.

.   Live view is beautifully implemented and really quick.  There's no need to use edge detect in my opinion.  Magnification linked to focusing works very very well. Moveable focus / spot metering point via controller pad is exactly what I wanted.

.   For the occassions when I need it, I'm much happier with the EVF on the M than I was with the (albeit superlative) EVF on the SL.  With the M, I have the RF for 90% of my needs.  The EVF is there for when I need it – with Live View as a perfect option for tripod use (though the tilt on the EVF is going to be so useful for odd viewing angles).

.   Slightly raised magnification button works well with R lenses on adaptor

.   Auto ISO has been really well implemented – I've been using it with 2xFL and with the increased ISO headroom found it super easy to get well exposed, sharp images.

.   Chrome finish and solidity of the body inspire confidence

-   ISSUES

.   Some concern around SDXC cards (my 64GB cards weren't recognised).  I understand Leica are working on this.

.   I don't like the strap that much (and would have preferred it if they'd kept the plastic protector pads on the body

.   Shutter sound is a sort of high, bright click.  Can't say if it's noiser or not than M-240.  A lot better than the M9 whatever!

 

3.    IMAGE QUALITY

-  POSITIVE

.   Make sure that you have the right version (6.8) or latest CC installed and use the DEFAULT Adobe profile (NOT the embedded M10).  If you set it up correctly the colour is lovely in my opinion, and AWB has been well implemented.

.   I'm finding ISO 6400 fully useable and ISO 3200 is better than ISO 1240 on the M-240.  A real step forward

.   I've not had enough time to assess image quality across a range of work as yet, but for the moment I've had no problems.

-   ISSUES

.  none as yet..

 

4.    CONCLUSION

For me, this is what I'd hoped for when I bought the M8.  It's taken 10 years, but I genuinely feel that Leica have given us a classic with the M10 and I now have a pair of companions that are going to meet my needs for a very long time to come.  Technology arrives at a point of saturation where improvements become so marginal that the need to change is reduced.  I have a NAD tuner amp from the 1980s that is still producing clean, pleasing sound, a 25 year old Omega Seamaster that keeps time to a couple of minutes a week, and an iPhone SE which is the right size and does what I want.  Etc.  I now have two M bodies which should be around for a good number of years. 

My next photographic investments are likely to be in glass rather than in capture devices (unless I get myself a 10x8 Deardorff )

 

5.    SOME IMAGE SAMPLES

I've put a few samples onto my Flickr site. They're incidental shots from around London and in the flat.  I was mainly trying to test performance in low light. Some of the images were taken in VERY dark areas and I exposed to capture the scene rather than to raise light levels.  I was amazed by how easy it was to focus when the object I was looking at was so poorly illuminated (particularly some of the art work).

https://flic.kr/s/aHskRpb4mJ

Edited February 2, 2017 by chris_tribble

[Mike Rawcs]

Thanks Chris, the example photographs look lovely, as does the Chrome M10 (I've ordered black!).

[microview]

images look very malleable re detail recovery; thanks for uploads

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[chris_tribble]

images look very malleable re detail recovery; thanks for uploads

The files are on a par with or better than the SL's in my experience. I'm looking forward to using the Ms on a couple of theatre shoots that are coming up.

[chris_tribble]

I've added some additional shots (low light with 50 summilux asph and 28 summicron asph).  Again, mostly central London in and around the National Gallery.

https://flic.kr/s/aHskRpb4mJ

[Guest]

Hi Chris,

 

Thank you for the image link above some really great images there I like this one very much L1001638.jpg.

[otto.f]

I have my M10 for a week now and can agree with all Chris Tribble's points as far as I encountered them already, except for one thing. I am not completely convinced about the AWB in all artificial light situations. Perhaps it is especially the modern endurable lamps that give a, sometimes difficult to correct, greenish cast? And, more often, a bias in favor of yellow, as we can see in Tribble's series of London too. I trust this can be overcome in a firmware upgrade, but at this moment the M9 still works better for me in these situations.

Edited February 2, 2017 by otto.f

[chris_tribble]

Otto - this is interesting.  I deliberately haven't adjusted WB in any of these as I wanted to give AWB a good run.  That's also why I've shot with the horrid kinds of mixed lighting that you get in galleries, shops etc.

 

QUESTION - which version of Lightroom are you using?  I'm on 6.8 and for skin tones it makes a huge difference.  

Also - can you say which image you think are yellower than you'd like?  I'll be interested to check these.

 

Best

[digitalfx]

I have my M10 for a week now and can agree with all Chris Tribble's points as far as I encountered them already, except for one thing. I am not completely convinced about the AWB in all artificial light situations. Perhaps it is especially the modern endurable lamps that give a, sometimes difficult to correct, greenish cast? And, more often, a bias in favor of yellow, as we can see in Tribble's series of London too. I trust this can be overcome in a firmware upgrade, but at this moment the M9 still works better for me in these situations.

 

 

Are you using the LEICAM10 or Adobe profile in LR 6.8?

[chris_tribble]

Are you using the LEICAM10 or Adobe profile in LR 6.8?

Adobe - the embedded LEICAM10 is the one that produces the horrid skin tones.

[johnbuckley]

From Chris above:

 

4. CONCLUSION

For me, this is what I'd hoped for when I bought the M8. It's taken 10 years, but I genuinely feel that Leica have given us a classic with the M10 and I now have a pair of companions that are going to meet my needs for a very long time to come. Technology arrives at a point of saturation where improvements become so marginal that the need to change is reduced. I have a NAD tuner amp from the 1980s that is still producing clean, pleasing sound, a 25 year old Omega Seamaster that keeps time to a couple of minutes a week, and an iPhone SE which is the right size and does what I want. Etc. I now have two M bodies which should be around for a good number of years.

My next photographic investments are likely to be in glass rather than in capture devices (unless I get myself a 10x8 Deardorff )

 

--

 

I couldn't agree more. After two weeks, the M10 is clearly the apotheosis of the digital M. I've seldom had to go into the menu system at all - so to that extent it is like the M7. It has IMHO the best shutter sound of all the digital Ms. It feels great in the hand. I love the Visoflex almost as much as I hated the M240's EVF.

 

The single most interesting phenemenon for me, though, is the color rendering is so natural and accurate and in that Goldilocks equipoise between "not too hot" and "not too cold", that when I am using it, and in post production, I virtually have forgotten that Black and White conversion is an option. And over time, with Monochroms as the stimulus, I've become more of a monochrome photographer than color. And I like the M10 files so much, I have to remind myself B&W is an option.

 

I've had a few classic M freezes necessitating the battery being popped out. These have come when the buffer is wearying of rapid-fire capture. And unlike others, I haven't really noticed a profound upgrade in the viewfinder -- at least less of an upgrade than the M240 was from the M9.

 

But all in, this new M is a joy. And yes, much as I really feel like my life as a photographer was changed when the M8, with all its limitations, let me take Leica glass into the digital realm, I feel with M10 like the photography I love has been rationalized. I had just gotten used to the expanded horizons of the SL. Now I am back to reveling in all the limitations -- and all the advantages -- of shooting with an M.

[chris_tribble]

John - full agreement.  What will you do with your SL?  If you've not got the AF glass, I'm not sure where it fits in now...

UPDATE - just realised I'd not made the London shots public in Flickr.  They're now available at:

https://flic.kr/s/aHskRpb4mJ

 

Best

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Rick]

John - full agreement.  What will you do with your SL?  If you've not got the AF glass, I'm not sure where it fits in now...

UPDATE - just realised I'd not made the London shots public in Flickr.  They're now available at:

https://flic.kr/s/aHskRpb4mJ

 

Best

 

 

Chris - Thanks, that is a really nice set.  Great color.  Leica really nailed it this time.  

 

Haven't been posting much lately here.  There is really nothing much to talk about.  The camera is just so nice in every way!  So glad I hung on to all my Leica M lenses.

 

Rick