B&W vs Leica UV. filters

[earleygallery]

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14 minutes ago, logan2z said:

 So, yes, there may be parts used in a lens that cost less than a filter or a roll of film, but they were an integral part of the lens design.  The Leica lens designers couldn't design around deficiencies in the design/manufacture of a third-party filter and, therefore, the filters could have an unknown affect on the optical performance of the lens.

There's nothing to 'design around' though. The filter sits in front of the lens and isn't part of the optics as such.

You seem to forget that Leica designed the M8 to be used with IRUV filters, rather than adding filtration in front of the sensor (OK they changed the design with the M9) and filters are often used by film photographers, the lens designers would always expect that photographers would use filters, there's nothing to 'design around' here.

[ymc226]

7 hours ago, Ivar B said:

I believe Peter Karbe mentioned in his speech that all glass elements will affect performance, but the effects of a good filter is unmeasurable. He stressed GOOD filters, though.

I have been very happy with B + W MRC Nano. One thing which was an advantage at least compared to older Leica filters, was that they were much easier to clean. A B + W filter looks new immediately, I believe this may have something to do with the extremely hard surface. 

Some may know that if you have an older Summilux 50 mm with E43 thread (or new lenses with the same design) you need a UV-filter from Leica as the filter is very slim and with a filter from a different brand you can not attach the lens hood. Leica no longer offers this filter so what I did was buy a used one, remove the glass (easy), buy a B + W MRC with much better coating, cut it open (carefully) remove the glass, insert it in the Leica mount, affix the fastening ring, and voila, you have an E43 which works with first class glass. 

I would be very interested in doing this in that I just acquired both E43 Leitz filters in SL and Or after initially getting the latest B+W filters and finding they did not allow use of the native hood. Can you go more into detail about how to remove the glass for both?

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[logan2z]

2 hours ago, earleygallery said:

There's nothing to 'design around' though. The filter sits in front of the lens and isn't part of the optics as such.

I'm no optics expert, but that seems analogous to saying that the front element isn't part of the optical system because it sits in front of the rest of the lens's optical components. 

But I didn't intend to start a holy war over the use of filters.  The topic has been hotly debated and there are people in both the filter and no-filter camps.  And I just took my brand new Summicron 50mm v5 out this morning for the first time and noticed a big piece of dreck on the front element which, thankfully, came right off with a bulb blower.  So I may now have moved firmly into the filter camp

Hoping the B+W 39mm filters work with the Summicron's pull-out lens hood.  If not, I'll be dropping $135 on a Leica filter

Edited September 5, 2020 by logan2z

[pedaes]

35 minutes ago, ymc226 said:

I would be very interested in doing this in that I just acquired both E43 Leitz filters in SL and Or after initially getting the latest B+W filters and finding they did not allow use of the native hood. Can you go more into detail about how to remove the glass for both?

Before you do that I would look at the B+W 'T' range as they have very thin mounts. https://schneiderkreuznach.com/en/vorlage/uv-clear

Edited September 5, 2020 by pedaes

[earleygallery]

2 minutes ago, logan2z said:

I'm no optics expert, but that seems analogous to saying that the front element isn't part of the optical system because it sits in front of the rest of the lens's optical components. 

But I didn't intend to start a holy war over the use of filters.  The topic has been hotly debated and there are people in both the filter and no-filter camps.  And I just took my brand new Summicron 50mm v5 out this morning for the first time and noticed a big piece of dreck on the front element which, thankfully, came right off with a bulb blower.  So I may now have moved firmly into the filter camp

Hoping the B+W 39mm filters work with the Summicron's pull-out lens hood.  If not, I'll be dropping $135 on a Leica filter

How will your photos look if you took the front lens element away?...........

[logan2z]

3 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

How will your photos look if you took the front lens element away?...........

 When I say 'part of the optical system', I mean it's in the light path and could potentially have an impact on the final image.  Whether it does or not depends on the quality of the filter.

[CaseyS]

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Just for consideration, look at Breakthrough Photography. Their X4 UV filters are highly rated.

“The X4 features SCHOTT Ultrawhite B270 optical glass made in Germany. Our state-of-the-art multi-resistant coating has 16-layers (MRC16) which increases light transmission to 99.4% and creates a protective layer that's structurally harder than the glass.”

 

[pgk]

29 minutes ago, logan2z said:

 When I say 'part of the optical system', I mean it's in the light path and could potentially have an impact on the final image.  Whether it does or not depends on the quality of the filter.

So is air, and it is also often full of pollutants. Photography in vacuum conditions is only possible by a very select few and even they have to shoot through glass ......

[Ecar]

3 hours ago, earleygallery said:

You seem to forget that Leica designed the M8 to be used with IRUV filters

Erm, well, actually they didn't... The filters came after, once they realised in full panic mode that their design was not-so-great and blacks were turning to magenta...

Hence, as you pointed out, the different design for the M9 sensor (which came with its own set of issues, but that's another story).

Edited September 5, 2020 by Ecar

[lct]

8 minutes ago, Ecar said:

Erm, well, actually they didn't... The filters came after, once they realised in full panic mode that their design was not-so-great and blacks were turning to magenta...

Hence, as you pointed out, the different design for the M9 sensor (which came with its own set of issues, but that's another story).

Or the M8 was designed to be used with IR-cut filters but Leica did not know it themselves . More seriously the M8 has of one the thinner sensor stacks available (0.5mm), thanks to this design, and this is visible on pics. 

[Ecar]

2 hours ago, lct said:

More seriously the M8 has of one the thinner sensor stacks available (0.5mm), thanks to this design, and this is visible on pics. 

Fully agree. That's why I kept one.😉 It doesn't see much use these days, but is still capable of producing wonderfully crisp results in good light and with the right lenses.

Somewhat back on topic: would it be fair to contend that UV/IR filters did save Leica from a total disaster in terms of both image and economics? If so, filters must surely be a good thing  

Edited September 5, 2020 by Ecar

[james.liam]

3 hours ago, CaseyS said:

Just for consideration, look at Breakthrough Photography. Their X4 UV filters are highly rated.

“The X4 features SCHOTT Ultrawhite B270 optical glass made in Germany. Our state-of-the-art multi-resistant coating has 16-layers (MRC16) which increases light transmission to 99.4% and creates a protective layer that's structurally harder than the glass.”

 

Nice filters but the ridging of the ring precludes extension of some built-in hoods. 

[pedaes]

3 hours ago, CaseyS said:

99.4%

Not sure how relevant, but the best filters (on this measure) are at 99.9% in independent tests (Leica UVa II)

Edited September 5, 2020 by pedaes

[earleygallery]

4 hours ago, Ecar said:

Erm, well, actually they didn't... The filters came after, once they realised in full panic mode that their design was not-so-great and blacks were turning to magenta...

Hence, as you pointed out, the different design for the M9 sensor (which came with its own set of issues, but that's another story).

I expect you're right but that's not what Leica said - it was all part of the plan, apparently.......

[Ivar B]

22 hours ago, ymc226 said:

I would be very interested in doing this in that I just acquired both E43 Leitz filters in SL and Or after initially getting the latest B+W filters and finding they did not allow use of the native hood. Can you go more into detail about how to remove the glass for both?

Sure. Removing the glass from the Leica mount was easy. There is a fastening ring with two small holes where you can use a plier or something to unscrew the fastening ring. This was easy with my E43 at least. The B + W filter glass appears to be mounted differently. I fastened the filter mount carefully to a vise (?) and cut it open with a small saw. This actually was not difficult either as the mount material was quite soft. Finally, I put the B + W glass back in the Leica mount and attached the fastening ring again. 5 minutes maximum.

[ymc226]

1 hour ago, Ivar B said:

Sure. Removing the glass from the Leica mount was easy. There is a fastening ring with two small holes where you can use a plier or something to unscrew the fastening ring. This was easy with my E43 at least. The B + W filter glass appears to be mounted differently. I fastened the filter mount carefully to a vise (?) and cut it open with a small saw. This actually was not difficult either as the mount material was quite soft. Finally, I put the B + W glass back in the Leica mount and attached the fastening ring again. 5 minutes maximum.

Thank you Ivan.  When say you cut the filter, do you mean you cut perpendicular, as on the axis of the filter/lens and peeled away the filter frame from the glass?

[Ivar B]

1 hour ago, ymc226 said:

Thank you Ivan.  When say you cut the filter, do you mean you cut perpendicular, as on the axis of the filter/lens and peeled away the filter frame from the glass?

Yes; using a little saw cutting off the filter rim.

[lct]

20 hours ago, earleygallery said:

I expect you're right but that's not what Leica said - it was all part of the plan, apparently.......

Did they say the two UV/IR filters they had to give for free was a part of this plan as well?

[jdlaing]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

Did they say the two UV/IR filters they had to give for free was a part of this plan as well?

On a side note......they didn’t have to give them for free. It was a nice gesture. The first such camera would be an experiment at best and all in all it was great.

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[earleygallery]

1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

On a side note......they didn’t have to give them for free. It was a nice gesture. The first such camera would be an experiment at best and all in all it was great.

It's ironic though that so many people wanted to buy a Leica camera that required filters to make it work properly and were happy to spend 0000's on Leica lenses only to then ruin their superior optical quality with cheap filters............

Same with film users, silly fools, using coloured filters on their lenses. I mean not only are they degrading the image quality, it's B&W for god's sake so they don't even see the colours!!!