Options for Shift lenses on the M-240 -Merged

[Manolo Laguillo]

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This is an interesting thread but I can't help wonder whether those who are serious about architectural photography (or any other photography for which tilt/shift lenses are of benefit) shouldn't be looking at other systems. The M 240 is unproven at this moment in time and there is no reason to believe that its 24MP CMOS chip holds any advantage over, say, the 36MP chip of the Nikon 800E. £5100 buys a lot of DSLR nowadays and is in reach of used Hasselblad and other MF systems. Using SLR tilt/shift lenses on an M negates the small size of the M body and the user will not be using the defining characteristic of the M system – namely, it's optical viewfinder. Rather than mess around with adapters, etc. it would better IMO to just use a camera better suited (from the outset) to the task in hand – especially at this "35mm" generalist level of photography. If you are very serious about architectural photography (on the level of that which gets commissioned for magazines like Domus) you'd be better off looking at a higher level of system altogether and/or spending your money on lighting equipment.

 

What is easier, using this shifting lenses with a DSLR, or with a M9? The answer is obvious: with a DSLR. But we are not speaking about the obvious, but about a solution that is much more interesting precisely because it is not an obvious one.

 

I like the quality of the M9 very much. And that's the camera I have. This is an important point;). I don't have neither a Nikon 800 nor a 5DIII, only because I don't want them, because I don't need them. The price of a 2nd hand PC lens like the 28PC-R is much lower than those bodies. With this lens I'm entirely satisfied: it adds only 800 gr to my bag, and it's like having a very small view camera at hand.

 

Using this lens on a M9 means precisely taking advantage of the M9's small size. Everything can be looked at from different, even diverging, points of view. We as photographers know this very well .

 

The combination of a M9 with a shift lens will seem bizarre at first, but it isn't if we think a little bit about it, or better yet, if we use it. This combination requires experience and practice, but can be really rewarding if we are willing to assume a learning period.

[wattsy]

Using this lens on a M9 means precisely taking advantage of the M9's small size. Everything can be looked at from different, even diverging, points of view.

 

Have you found any problems with colour shift using a tilt/shift lens on the M9?

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[chris_tribble]

The combination of a M9 with a shift lens will seem bizarre at first, but it isn't if we think a little bit about it, or better yet, if we use it. This combination requires experience and practice, but can be really rewarding if we are willing to assume a learning period.

 

Thanks for comments Manolo - I must admit I hadn't thought about using a shift lens with the M9 - that did feel like a step too far. However, when the M-240 is here with both Live View (on a large rear screen) + the EVF it really does feel as if it might be a viable option for this kind of work.

 

re your comments about keeping down the weight of the bag - I couldn't agree more

[Manolo Laguillo]

Have you found any problems with colour shift using a tilt/shift lens on the M9?

 

Yes, there is everything: chromatic aberrations and fringing. But they can both be easily removed in PP. With LR4 it's a couple of clicks. The defringe tool has a 'dropper' (is that the word?) with which the purple and green hues can be finely adjusted.

My usual setting for the 28mm PC-R is:

Amount 7 for Purple Hue 33/63

Amount 0 for Green Hue

[flyalf]

Thanks for input,

 

I think many (such as me) will anyway have a M and wants to use it with a T/S also given the new liveviewv. So its not as such investing in a new system dedicated for architecture, but investing in one new lens

 

I really would have liked to see a test between a photo of T/S quite much shifted and a photo cropped to similar size after post-processing and alternating perspective similar.

 

The IQ from post processing will be negatively affected by:

 

1) The need to use a much wider lens and corresponding crop (throwing away pixels). But of course you will have to invest more in a T/S lens due to the need for a larger image circle.

 

2) The SW will have to extrapolate as you "move pixels" by changing perspective. I dont know how much this affects IQ?

 

 

This is an interesting thread but I can't help wonder whether those who are serious about architectural photography (or any other photography for which tilt/shift lenses are of benefit) shouldn't be looking at other systems. The M 240 is unproven at this moment in time and there is no reason to believe that its 24MP CMOS chip holds any advantage over, say, the 36MP chip of the Nikon 800E. £5100 buys a lot of DSLR nowadays and is in reach of used Hasselblad and other MF systems. Using SLR tilt/shift lenses on an M negates the small size of the M body and the user will not be using the defining characteristic of the M system – namely, it's optical viewfinder. Rather than mess around with adapters, etc. it would better IMO to just use a camera better suited (from the outset) to the task in hand – especially at this "35mm" generalist level of photography. If you are very serious about architectural photography (on the level of that which gets commissioned for magazines like Domus) you'd be better off looking at a higher level of system altogether and/or spending your money on lighting equipment.

[wlaidlaw]

Having been using a VF-2 today, I don't think there is a cat's chance in hell of using it to correct perspective with a TS lens on the M-240. The screen is just far too small. However you might be able to do it, using the back LCD. Even with the 230K dot screen on the Olympus EP-2, it was easier manual focusing than using the VF-2, so with the 900+K screen on the M-240, the picture should be pretty clear. Chris was saying he was using a dioptre on the VF-2 and it seemed OK. I am not sure if he meant a magnifier like one of the 1.4X Leica ones or one of the Japan Exposures ones. This might improve things a bit but not I feel, enough to use for TS. The VF-2 does have a focusing eye-piece.

 

Wilson

[chris_tribble]

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Wilson - sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant the dioptre adjustment on the EVF... not a magnifier.

 

re different applications, my current thoughts on focusing the M-240 are that the RF will be the main tool. I can see myself using the EVF with long lenses and the rear screen for a shift lens (in the same way that I think I'd have had problems composing with the viewfinder on a DSLR with this lens). Assuming that the EVF is a useable resource (and it better had be, because otherwise a lot of arguments stack up against the M-240) what I will be intrigued to see is if it is a better option for ultrawides than the Frankenfinder...

[wlaidlaw]

Far from the world's best technical photograph but this gives folks a rough idea of the size of the screen in the VF-2. Of course, the image on view at this point is 4 x 3 ratio, which takes up all the real estate of the screen. The image from the M-240 will be cropped at the top and bottom for the 2 x 3 ratio images.

 

I have to confess to being rather disappointed with this screen. I had expected it to be a huge leap from the EVF on my Ricoh GX200 and it's only a marginal improvement. I recall the EV screen on the Sony R1 I had before the M8, subtending a larger part of one's vision but that may be my memory being faulty. I had hoped for something that looked just like an electronic version of a good SLR screen and it's a fair way from that. I think accurate manual focusing of a long lens with this VF is going to be a challenge. I hope I am wrong.

 

Wilson

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[keithlaban.co.uk]

I had hoped for something that looked just like an electronic version of a good SLR screen and it's a fair way from that.

 

Thanks for your post, but really, not what I wanted to hear. I'll test it myself but sadly this sounds as though it's going to be a deal breaker.

 

Damn.

[chris_tribble]

Don't forget that the implementation on the M-240 is likely to be different in terms of un-screen information, and my understanding is that you can use the thumbwheel to zoom in for fine detail tuning in the EVF...

 

I'm going to live in hope ...

[wlaidlaw]

Chris,

 

On the EP-2, when you are in manual focus mode, the VF automatically zooms as soon as you move the focus ring.

 

Wilson

[Hausen17]

Wow my Leica PC R 28/2.8 turned up today from Peter Coeln in Austria and what a gorgeous looking lens. Mine is mint 1991. The lens beat the adaptor so won't be able to give it a try just yet but can't wait.

[MarkP]

Must be the day for PC lenses:rolleyes:.

 

My immaculate 1999 28 PC-R just arrived from Spain (courtesy of Manolo) with case, hood, R-to-M adapter (beautifully made btw), 1999 vintage:).

 

It's a big lens - sort of like a Noctilux with dongle!

 

Now I have to find some time this week to use it, following Manolo's workflow instructions of course.

Edited November 12, 2012 by MarkP

[chris_tribble]

Chris,

 

On the EP-2, when you are in manual focus mode, the VF automatically zooms as soon as you move the focus ring.

 

Wilson

 

Wilson - this I understood, but from this zoom adjusted frame, you can then magnify in order to fine tune focus via the thumb-wheel. At least that's my understanding from various posts... David Farkas has commented (http://www.reddotforum.com/content.php/278-Photokina-2012-Day-1-The-Leica-M):

 

Also, when in the focus peaking mode, you can turn the thumb dial which creates a magnified view on screen, adjustable all the way up to 10x magnification. I think the f/0.95 Noctiliux just got infinitely easier to master for an entire user base. This mode is useful to achieve rapid and very precise focus. To get back to the main view, just tap the shutter button lightly and it snaps back to the full image. The camera is extremely responsive, changing modes and playing back images with just about no delay.

 

He also comments:

 

Another cool feature was shown to me in the menu. If you turn on Auto Focus Assist, the camera will switch to focus peaking anytime you move the focus ring to refocus without having to press the focus button on the front of the camera. How does this work? Well, those Leica engineers are very clever. They have a sensor on the old rangefinder focus arm to tell when it’s been moved. Cool. And, it worked as advertised, making focus peaking that much more useful without having to fiddle with the camera.

Edited November 12, 2012 by chris_tribble

[wlaidlaw]

Chris,

 

I am not sure what the difference between zoom and magnification is in practical terms. The VF-2 is zooming digitally not optically, so in effect, I think it amounts to the same. I don't know what the zoom factor is but it looks to be about 10X. I hope my M to mFT adapter will arrive today and then I can see how I get on with the 80-200 zoom and VF-2. I don't know whether the automatic zoom is triggered by the physical movement of the focus ring on the EP-2 or the changing focus via the contrast detection AF sensor. I hope the latter, as then it will trigger when I try to focus the 80-200. I have not yet found if I can zoom manually without wading through various levels of menu, like you will be able to on the M-240. However I suspect it is the physical movement of the focus ring that triggers the zoom, when in manual focus mode.

 

Wilson

[jaapv]

Far from the world's best technical photograph but this gives folks a rough idea of the size of the screen in the VF-2. Of course, the image on view at this point is 4 x 3 ratio, which takes up all the real estate of the screen. The image from the M-240 will be cropped at the top and bottom for the 2 x 3 ratio images.

 

I have to confess to being rather disappointed with this screen. I had expected it to be a huge leap from the EVF on my Ricoh GX200 and it's only a marginal improvement. I recall the EV screen on the Sony R1 I had before the M8, subtending a larger part of one's vision but that may be my memory being faulty. I had hoped for something that looked just like an electronic version of a good SLR screen and it's a fair way from that. I think accurate manual focusing of a long lens with this VF is going to be a challenge. I hope I am wrong.

 

Wilson

I fear you are right - the choice of EVF was thing that got me looking at other options for my long lenses...

There will be a considerable blackout after taking the shot too. ( can be filled with image review).

I'm sure the M will be fine with shift, macro and moderate other brand lenses. But I need to be convinced of the usefulness for dynamic tele work.

I guess I could cope -after all I can cope with the Visoflex- but I was looking at a bit of an improvement.

Edited November 12, 2012 by jaapv

[jdlaing]

I fear you are right - the choice of EVF was thing that got me looking at other options for my long lenses...

There will be a considerable blackout after taking the shot too. ( can be filled with image review).

I'm sure the M will be fine with shift, macro and moderate other brand lenses. But I need to be convinced of the usefulness for dynamic tele work.

I guess I could cope -after all I can cope with the Visoflex- but I was looking at a bit of an improvement.

 

You keep saying considerable black out but it is not.

[jaapv]

Ok how long? It is a valid consideration for me, I would be happy to be proved wrong.

[giordano]

Ok how long?

 

Faster than a Visoflex II, slower than a Visoflex III?

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[jdlaing]

Ok how long? It is a valid consideration for me, I would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

So fast that after a while using it it is un-noticeable and un-obtrusive.

Anywhere between 25 and 100 milliseconds depending on how you have it set.

It is gone in an instant.

It blacks out much faster than you could cock a shutter or a film winder operates to the next frame and much faster than an M body shutter re-cocks.

I've shot 8,000 photos using one and it is no big deal.

If you are doing machine gun DSLr type stuff for sports it might aggravate you.

Rangefinder photography will be just fine.

 

I just have a preference for OVF anyway.

I, if I get an "M", wouldn't use the add on EVF anyway even though I own one.

Edited November 12, 2012 by jdlaing