M9reno Posted May 30, 2012 Share #101 Posted May 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Can you deal with the truth, even if delivered bluntly? I sincerely hope so. Michael, you still have not said what you think about the MP as a camera "for a lifetime." True or false? And if true, how do you define "lifetime"? Please, please let's keep this nice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Hi M9reno, Take a look here AP interview with Dr Kaufmann. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted May 30, 2012 Share #102 Posted May 30, 2012 He spoke of the "end of film" at the Berlin announcement, and then underlined this by giving colour film five years - and b&w maybe a little more - in an interview. Yet he still sells two models of film cameras that supposedly last "a lifetime". Let's stop making excuses for him. No excuse necessary. One could say that 5 years are overly generous but I guess that’s because he does believe in film after all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted May 30, 2012 Share #103 Posted May 30, 2012 Michael, you still have not said what you think about the MP as a camera "for a lifetime." While I don’t put that much confidence in marketing claims, be it Leica’s or anyone’s, I suppose that a an MP might last the photographer’s lifetime (i.e. it might be serviceable during that time). Whether it will be easy to obtain film for that camera in, say, 20 years time is anyone’s guess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 30, 2012 Share #104 Posted May 30, 2012 Oh, no Michael ... so the camera "for a lifetime" is actually one that won't be catered for by the film industry in LESS than five years?! Don't you think they should stick that caveat on their website? And given such an elastic use of the English lexicon by this company, what else are they telling us that we should take with a pinch of salt? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted May 30, 2012 Share #105 Posted May 30, 2012 He's just sandbagging everyone until the release at Photokina of a film only R10 AF SLR camera and a cellphone made in collaboration with RIM that uses 9.5mm Minox film. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted May 30, 2012 Share #106 Posted May 30, 2012 That's what I wish the owner had said............................ You'd still have his T shirt to contend with. It's a tough old world. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2012 Share #107 Posted May 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Oh, no Michael ... so the camera "for a lifetime" is actually one that won't be catered for by the film industry in LESS than five years?! Don't you think they should stick that caveat on their website? And given such an elastic use of the English lexicon by this company, what else are they telling us that we should take with a pinch of salt? No,the film industry aka Kodak and Fuji will probably be indeed dead or possibly moribund. But no reason to get all het up, as small companies like Rollei, Efke, Fomapan and others will be doing just fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 31, 2012 Share #108 Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Oh, no Michael ... so the camera "for a lifetime" is actually one that won't be catered for by the film industry in LESS than five years?! Don't you think they should stick that caveat on their website? And given such an elastic use of the English lexicon by this company, what else are they telling us that we should take with a pinch of salt? Huh? Why would they put that on their website? Leica doesn't make film. They make cameras to shoot the film in. It is up to the person buying the camera to determine the forecast for film don't you think? I really have no idea what your point is on this thread unless you just have some sort of personal problem with Leica. Obviously some of you must if, you have to get all worked up about Kaufmann's clothes and then you have to go to war over something he said about the reality of film not being around forever. That sooo offended you? Really? Maybe, you need to make peace with yourself not Kaufmann. Never ceases to amaze me how superficial Leica commenters are here. It is just a camera and a camera company. Stop taking it so personally. It isn't personal. You just seem to want to make it about yourself and get upset because you think the Leica Universe knows you exist or cares what your personal budget is. It doesn't. It is just a camera company. Don't like it, move along. Edited May 31, 2012 by RickLeica 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted May 31, 2012 Share #109 Posted May 31, 2012 This whole thread is based on a link to a blog in one magazine and is a case of an ounce of fact generating an avalanche of comment and speculation. It would be far more edifying to read an in-depth interview with Dr. K which would include direct questions that he could expand on. It is shame that Leica customers don't have a regular or frequent opportunity to ask the company some of these questions themselves, perhaps via this forum. Just a suggestion. It is undeniable that the film market is shrinking. Whether Leica's strategy is the right one, or the preferable one, on the one most Leicaphiles would like to see, is another matter entirely. For example, I see B+W sensor cameras as a sub-niche market of interest only to a handful of photographers. I'd far rather see other products, such as that EVIL/CSC camera, interchangeable sensors (pure fantasy I am sure), DSLR would appeal to many, plus an overall emphasis on ruggedness and reliability. PS: I'm glad to see Dr. K is an All Blacks supporter! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted May 31, 2012 Share #110 Posted May 31, 2012 At least Dr Kaufmann didn't speak of "the end of film as we know it." You're confusing marketing language ('camera for a lifetime') with frank talk about the shrinking film market. The two are different beasts and not to be compared. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted May 31, 2012 Share #111 Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) No,the film industry aka Kodak and Fuji will probably be indeed dead or possibly moribund. But no reason to get all het up, as small companies like Rollei, Efke, Fomapan and others will be doing just fine. I was about to hit the Thanks button, but does Rollei really make their own film? I thought they just rebranded and over-priced other makers' film. I would never buy their stuff. The foreboding dread of their wooden coffin containers is too much. And their hype is silly - "Retro" film on a polyester base - gimmie a break. Edited May 31, 2012 by pico Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 31, 2012 Share #112 Posted May 31, 2012 That's what I wish the owner had said, but he was too busy trying to be cool and forgot to say it. He spoke of the "end of film" at the Berlin announcement, and then underlined this by giving colour film five years - and b&w maybe a little more - in an interview. Yet he still sells two models of film cameras that supposedly last "a lifetime". Let's stop making excuses for him. Okay, here's a reality check. Leica will probably stop offering two film cameras in the next 12 months (see Erwin Puts comments in the Chronicles, and Dr Kaufmann's realistic observations about the future of film). So, those who want a film camera will have a lovely a la carte option for a nice shiny new M7. Those people who have bought MPs and other "cameras for life" will still have cameras for life. There is nothing in the marketing strap lines which say that Leica will make the cameras forever. If you bought an MP for your life time, you'll have it for your life time, and your children. The fact that Leica will probably not make any film cameras then is not the point. I would guess that anyone holding any version of any Leica camera (by that I mean one made in Germany by Leica) will probably get parts, service and all manner of assistance from Leica for their camera for the rest of their lives, at least. I have a 1962 M3 which last month got a new vulcanite cover, CLA, and DIN flash settings. 1962! Film will be available for almost anyone's lifetime, though from limited producers, in small quantities, and at reasonable expense. You will also struggle to get it easily developed. No camera shop (including the Leica dealer) on the main street of the largest town in my country will take B&W film for developing - I tried the other day. They'll sell me the film, but they won't develop it. To my knowledge, there's one local photo lab which will. I wonder how long they will stay in business. No one is developing new film cameras. The few that are available are all run out designs, or curiosities. Leica has not developed a new film camera since 2002 (with the MP & M7). Most (I'd hazard) Leica film camera users shoot B&W. Slide has gone, and it's a fair pick that colour negative film will have faded into oblivion before too long. It's a niche market. It might get bigger or smaller, but it's niche - no future other than to a gifted and devoted minority. Leica has released a B&W only digital (with higher resolution) and an M lens with MTF charts to match that resolution. So, I wonder where Leica is going next with the M camera? Somehow I doubt it is low res sensors ... and it ain't with film. So, if you're a predominant B&W shooter with a Leica M camera and a clutch of lenses, will the Monochrom have an effect on you? Hell yes! Goodbye to the joys of buying, loading and transporting film; being stuck with one ISO for a whole roll; mucking about with darkrooms, chemicals, thermometers and cleaning negs and removing fluff for scanning, let alone printing. To get a decent B&W print, I have to develop the negative myself, scan it, review it, and then drive to the photo lab for them to print it. With the Monochrom, I will be able to take a card out of my camera, plug it into my computer, play with it (just as effectively as with film, though less so than with an M9 file), and email it to Whitewall for a baryt print. I take pictures for the images, and prints; not for the joy of finding the developer has gone off, and tipping potentially toxic chemicals down the sink! Could this be the end of film? Well, for the Leica owner talking to the Leica faithful in Berlin, I say probably. The release of this camera will be the point at which many will put down their film M cameras, never to be touched again. Was Dr Kaufmann a fool, liar, idiot (take your pick) for saying this is the end of film? I think he was right. I don't think time will tell, because there will be no proof - we all know film will continue to be available, but not as a market force. You disagree - that's quite okay. Everyone is entitled to be wrong sometimes Those film cameras will still be as good as they were on 9 May, and they will "be for life". The inconvenient thing about life is that it moves on. There's no point in being Canute like, and raging against the tide (though his point was probably to illustrate just that). Dr Kaufmann was stating the reality for his company. Unethical? Tee Shirt? Okay, Steve Jobs sort of made the black turtle neck look good. Dr Kaufmann could have worn something more flattering, but I really don't give a toss. I'm more interested in what he has to say than what he wears. Looking cool? No need to be quite so uncharitable. I don't want to be rude, but get over it. Cheers John 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 31, 2012 Share #113 Posted May 31, 2012 Great plea! Do you think film making will be still possible if this industry is not supported by Kodak and Fuji any more? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 31, 2012 Share #114 Posted May 31, 2012 Rick, with respect, no need to get personal about other members in this discussion. It is quite rude. John, David, Howard et al. thanks for your input. Just to clarify, I am not raging against the tide, i.e. I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of the "end of film" per se. I intend to buy B&W film for my film Leicas for as long as it is sold, and I'm in it for the fun. No one is going to die, so I'm not particularly worried. My points are more about how Leica has used that reality in its marketing. What I don't like is doublespeak and posing (and I accept these are completely subjective appraisals) and I found Leica's big show and big words in Berlin (in the person of the good Doctor Kaufmann) rather annoying in this regard. Nothing more major than that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted May 31, 2012 Share #115 Posted May 31, 2012 Huh? Why would they put that on their website? Leica doesn't make film. They make cameras to shoot the film in. It is up to the person buying the camera to determine the forecast for film don't you think? I would guess you don't work in marketing do you? If a company makes a product that an awful lot of potential buyers think has no future because of supply of a vital ingredient, the company making the product needs to disabuse that perception. So Dr Kaufmann has either put his foot in his mouth by saying film is dead or dying, which it clearly isn't, or his agenda is to kill off the film camera product line by making it appear so. But assuming he's not trying to kill the film cameras off, and it was an ill informed gaff, Leica need to build the perception that film has a future, by promoting the supply of film, making it easy, giving people the confidence to buy a new camera. They need to say 'look, here is some film to use in our camera's', not leave people to make up their own minds after ten years of constant contrary propaganda. Lomography has turned film into a large niche industry against the tide. And the sad fact right now is that it is somebody with a Lomo camera and a bag of film who knows more about the supply of film, and has a more informed perception of its future, than Dr Kaufmann and many people on this forum. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 31, 2012 Share #116 Posted May 31, 2012 I would guess you don't work in marketing do you? Steve I think I beat you to that point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted May 31, 2012 Share #117 Posted May 31, 2012 I think I beat you to that point. I don't read all your posts Rick, that would be too much. So your great idea is? Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 31, 2012 Share #118 Posted May 31, 2012 I took my first pictures in the late 1940's. On black and white (natch) 120 film, though we asked for "six by nine large spool" to distinguish it from 620. And a Zeiss folder. I learned to handle 35mm film in 1956, in a Air Force darkroom. After I had purchased my M8 (plain) in the early months of 2007, I touched my M4-P only when, for a distinct purpose, I had to make full use of the image angle of one of my wide angle lenses. After I had got my M9 in the autumn of 2009, I have not exposed one single frame of film. Why should I? And as I have stated elsewhere, thanks to the instant feedback of a digital camera, I have learned more about exposure since 2006 than I ever learned during the previous half century plus. I will hopefully continue learning new and interesting things, in photography and in various other fields, until I scream "go ye to Hell!" at the Grim Reaper. Living is learning. Stop learning and you are dead. The old man from the 35mm Age 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 31, 2012 Share #119 Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) I don't read all your posts Rick, that would be too much. Steve I actually only have that one post on this thread. The just of it is; cut the guy some slack. His company makes great cameras. I hope he steadfastly holds to his vision for Leica. And, I could care less what he wears. Edited May 31, 2012 by RickLeica Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 31, 2012 Share #120 Posted May 31, 2012 I completely agree about digital's feedback and learning. But I feel my M9 complements my film cameras perfectly in that regard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.