What after M11 (Stefan Daniel's interview)

[M11 for me]

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So that was my argumentation: Assuming that rolling shutter is not much of an issue for some photographers as they are not active in areas where that effect comes in, then we can say that mech shutter could be left out in order to create space for the IBIS. Of course this is just an assumption and it could be wrong. I bring that in as the might be colleagues here who understand more.

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

So that was my argumentation: Assuming that rolling shutter is not much of an issue for some photographers as they are not active in areas where that effect comes in, then we can say that mech shutter could be left out in order to create space for the IBIS. Of course this is just an assumption and it could be wrong. I bring that in as the might be colleagues here who understand more.

Sigma fp-L has only an electronic shutter and the same readout speed. Also, Hasselblad X1DII has a much slower readout speed, and owners shoot with an electronic shutter when using adapted lenses. So, it can work.
I could imagine that there is a Leica model without a mechanical shutter and with IBIS, but it would not be the mainstream model. Maybe an M11-e 😉 (no EVF, though!).

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[setuporg]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

No, if we're very lucky, the M11 Monochrome will come before the "P".

And if we are incredibly lucky, the D will come sooner rather than never!:)

[Herr Barnack]

JMHO but the M12 needs to have:

OVF

Meßsucher mechanism

IBIS

 

And it needs to say 40 kinds of "oh, hell no" to:

video

EVF

Program mode (make that 65 kinds of "oh, hell no")

 

Leica is walking a tightrope between tradition/heritage and modernization/technology.  May they walk it with great discernment, keeping in mind the fact that trying to please everyone is the high speed lane on the road to hell. 

 

I hope and pray that the engineers at Wetzlar do not turn the M camera into the bastard lovechild of an ill advised drunken one night stand between the Sony a7R IVA and the Fujifilm X100V.  Perish the thought of such an abomination. 🤮

Edited June 5, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[setuporg]

3 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

And it needs to say 40 kinds of "oh, hell no" to:

video

Video is much easier to add than IBIS.  I bet you 1 Euro that it will come back to M in the next 50 years.

[T25UFO]

9 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Video is much easier to add than IBIS.  I bet you 1 Euro that it will come back to M in the next 50 years.

By which time video, as we currently know it, will no longer exist, replaced by some kind of augmented reality 😌 and my grandchildren will still be using my rangefinder camera 🙂

[TeleElmar135mm]

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vor 14 Minuten schrieb setuporg:

Video is much easier to add than IBIS.  I bet you 1 Euro that it will come back to M in the next 50 years.

... and the bottom cover will come back in the next 49 years (bet for 99 Euro-ct.)  

- and the M11-M will be black chrome

[Herr Barnack]

2 hours ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

... and the bottom cover will come back in the next 49 years (bet for 99 Euro-ct.)  

...

Maybe we should start a pool on which future M will have a full frame wet plate sensor.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Jeff S]

13 hours ago, Knipsknecht said:

It all boils down to a balance act for Leica that is becoming more and more complicated. How can the M-system stay “modern” enough to be seen as a relevant, high quality system of cameras and lenses, and stay - at the same time - as conservative as possible regarding the die-hard fans?

 

One way to achieve balance might be the simultaneous production of different M bodies that incorporate different technology/features or philosophy. We’ve seen this already with film Ms alongside digital Ms, some without screens, some monochromatic, different sensor/MP (M10 and M10R), etc.  The SL2 and  SL2-S offer another example. 
 

No reason a single M model needs to appeal to all customers. Of course only Leica can assess whether potential new variations might be viable in terms of market demand/profitability, production capability, etc.  

Jeff

[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Maybe we should start a pool on which future M will have a full frame wet plate sensor.

You mean an upgrade from this Leica?

[tedd]

Do people really miss having IBIS? If there is movement in the shot then it doesn't matter how good the IBIS, the shot will suck, and if there is no movement (or you want it for effect) then a small tripod or ledge is infinitely better than IBIS. The only time I have ever found it useful was with long lenses that don't suit an M anyway. I feel like either I'm missing something here or people want an M that isn't an M (probably drive one of those Porsche SUV's too). 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, tedd said:

Do people really miss having IBIS? If there is movement in the shot then it doesn't matter how good the IBIS, the shot will suck, and if there is no movement (or you want it for effect) then a small tripod or ledge is infinitely better than IBIS. The only time I have ever found it useful was with long lenses that don't suit an M anyway. I feel like either I'm missing something here or people want an M that isn't an M (probably drive one of those Porsche SUV's too). 

Yes, IBIS and OIS are useful for photographer movement, when you are taking photos in a hurry, or in low light and you want to keep ISO down. As with all useful technology, it pushes the boundaries of photography that is possible. An M is not restricted to slow-paced photography, fast shutter speeds or tripods, except by convention. I'm not complaining - I'm just not buying - and only Leica knows if that is a concern. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Herr Barnack:

Maybe we should start a pool on which future M will have a full frame wet plate sensor.

But then she needs a aterproofes and better handgrip - I think he was still developed by Leica some years ago. And with a loop on each side you need no IBIS. You can hold a 1/4 s with no blur

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[tedd]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, IBIS and OIS are useful for photographer movement, when you are taking photos in a hurry, or in low light and you want to keep ISO down. As with all useful technology, it pushes the boundaries of photography that is possible. An M is not restricted to slow-paced photography, fast shutter speeds or tripods, except by convention. I'm not complaining - I'm just not buying - and only Leica knows if that is a concern. 

Just my own lack of skill I’m sure, but I’ve never found pictures made in a hurry or poor lighting to be worthy of a print. 

[LocalHero1953]

24 minutes ago, tedd said:

Just my own lack of skill I’m sure, but I’ve never found pictures made in a hurry or poor lighting to be worthy of a print. 

Perhaps not as aesthetically pleasing images, but photos can also be valuable for what they record i.e. the subject matter. Leica Ms have always been used for documentary, journalism, events, performance and social occasions, without the expectation that the images should be worthy of a gallery. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[lct]

26 minutes ago, tedd said:

Just my own lack of skill I’m sure, but I’ve never found pictures made in a hurry or poor lighting to be worthy of a print. 

Just a matter of resolution. High res cameras are more prone to motion blur due to camera shake at 1/f and slower shutter speeds. Less of a problem for you if you don't pixel peep nor print billboards.  

Edited June 6, 2022 by lct

[elmars]

My fast and spontaneous taken photos are often the best - even technically. And the M is the right cameras for this. 

[Knipsknecht]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Jeff S:

One way to achieve balance might be the simultaneous production of different M bodies that incorporate different technology/features or philosophy. […]

No reason a single M model needs to appeal to all customers. Of course only Leica can assess whether potential new variations might be viable in terms of market demand/profitability, production capability, etc. 

Yes, that‘s what I thought, too. But I am not sure if it would be a good step for Leica to produce - let’s say - a “M classic” line with mechanical rangefinder and electronic minimalisms, and at the same time a “M 2.0” line with EVF, IBIS, AF and all computational bells and whistles (say, some kind of full frame Fuji X-Pro3 on steroids). 
Personally I would welcome this step, but I doubt that Leica could do it and stay profitable. Maybe the re-newed alliance with Panasonic could be part of the solution.

[Knipsknecht]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb tedd:

Just my own lack of skill I’m sure, but I’ve never found pictures made in a hurry or poor lighting to be worthy of a print. 

I would agree, but actually it depends on the situation:

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[Jeff S]

31 minutes ago, Knipsknecht said:

Yes, that‘s what I thought, too. But I am not sure if it would be a good step for Leica to produce - let’s say - a “M classic” line with mechanical rangefinder and electronic minimalisms, and at the same time a “M 2.0” line with EVF, IBIS, AF and all computational bells and whistles (say, some kind of full frame Fuji X-Pro3 on steroids). 
Personally I would welcome this step, but I doubt that Leica could do it and stay profitable. Maybe the re-newed alliance with Panasonic could be part of the solution.

AF??  You would welcome that in an M?  We apparently have very different ideas about potential M variants. I’m thinking about M variants, not Fuji variants, and lenses are part of that foundation. 

Jeff