AlanG Posted May 30, 2012 Share #21 Posted May 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I can't imagine the traditional, conservative leica ever abandoning film cameras completely. "Ever" is a long time. I guess they can keep the M7 and MP on the product list forever if nobody orders one. There are a lot of used ones on the market for those who need one. And their collectable special editions seem to be digital models now too. I also wonder how many new Linhof Master Technikas are made each year since the camera hasn't changed in about 40 years and can't really wear out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Hi AlanG, Take a look here AP interview with Dr Kaufmann. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted May 30, 2012 Share #22 Posted May 30, 2012 Okay, so let me put it another way. Apart from Leica, name one camera manufacturer that still offers a new 35 mm film camera. I'll start - Nikon will make an F6 to order. Others? Canon don't seem to. Hardly a rosy future for film if no one is making film cameras other than to order ... I think Dr Kaufmann was on the button; particularly if you consider the context that the Monochrom has the ability to offer B&W image detail and tonal control that rivals film. As I said, I see my M3 getting less use, even if I stick with my M9 and use a B&W conversion as Jamie suggests in another thread. No one is saying camera owners can't go out and keep taking images with film. But what is happening is that its relevance just became a bit less, cameras basically aren't made unless you order them specifically, film is getting harder to get and processing labs few and far between. Cheers John Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2012 Share #23 Posted May 30, 2012 I can't imagine the traditional, conservative leica ever abandoning film cameras completely. They will have to when the last technician with the skills to build them retires. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 30, 2012 Share #24 Posted May 30, 2012 By offending film users? Rather unlikely- the sales percentage of film bodies is minimal. The company does certainly not depend on it. My point is not that he should not offend film users. It is that he should not offend customers generally. The customer is always right, no? But apparently Leica now tells the world - and its customers - that film is/was the wrong choice. Be nice to customers: this is How to Run a Business 101. But Kaufmann seems to know better. Apparently the new way to launch a new product is to say the old products are rubbish. Seriously, even digital users should find this offensive. The inventors of 35mm film photography saying it's the end of film? It implies a company with a shocking lack of interest in its past products and their users. Will Leica Customer Service stop servicing film cameras in five years? What happened to film Leicas being investments "for a lifetime"? Will the company's attitude to the rest of its current lineup be the same? M10 introduced by saying it's the end of the M9? MMP introduced by declaring the MM is dead? It's an offensive and self-destructive way to do marketing. My problem with the "end of film" is not so much with what was said, but with who said it and why. That a business should try to sell new products by consciously (or even unconsciously) alienating even a fraction of its customers, and appear to turn its back on a powerful part of its own history, seems insane to me. I question the judgement of whoever put the "end of film" on the script. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted May 30, 2012 Share #25 Posted May 30, 2012 First of all, this "article" - or rather bulleted list of conversation snippets - is not informative but just fuels speculation. If Herr Dr Kaufmann means all film formats, then it would truly be the end of an era unless digital sensors/cameras rise in quality to the level of 5x4" film, and achieves the perspective control of large format - OR global society just plain stops caring for the kind of fidelity and control large format film can deliver. I cannot stand the later thought, but I might be dead by then anyway, but if I do live so long, I'm going to be one ranting pain-in-the-ass. Love this, Pico. It would not only be an end of an era, it would mean the end of photography for me. Kind of a juvenile response to a statement by someone who 1) invested his family's fortunes in a dying, near bankrupt company, 2) oversaw the development of the M9, S2 and other products that brought Leica back to profitability. You don't have to like his style, and he may or may not be wrong about the future of film, but if you are a fan of Leica, it's odd not to be grateful to a man who kept it from swirling down the drain. I liked the comment about Kaufmann's dress and I find myself in full agreement (Jobs, though, wore St Croix turtlenecks). Still, I think Kaufmann, millionaire or not, ought to have dressed for the occasion. Just my opinion, of course. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted May 30, 2012 Share #26 Posted May 30, 2012 They will have to when the last technician with the skills to build them retires. People are good at learning skill's, and following a parts diagram. It's not the technicians who are the weak link but the parts bin and tooling. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 30, 2012 Share #27 Posted May 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I can just see it, the day EVF with AF is introduced on an M: "it's the end of the rangefinder..." (still wearing black T-shirt). Someone bring this guy back to Earth! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted May 30, 2012 Share #28 Posted May 30, 2012 Somewhat related to this prediction, I wanted to have a color film developed 2 weeks ago on a saturday, and visited 2 photography shops, both advertising 1 hr service. No such luck - "we do not provide that service in the weekend":eek:... So instead of supporting them I reverted to handing the film in at HEMA (department store). They happily assisted in getting the job done. 1 hour service, cost eur 2.95. During the process I got into a discussion with the shop assistant a <20 years old charming girl who commented on my camera (M2) and we got into a discussion how much she likes using film cameras, She had about 6 of them & said she liked her Konica best, being small, compact easy to use etc. I think there is a "retro cool" market emerging, similar to vinyl. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahakalaka Posted May 30, 2012 Share #29 Posted May 30, 2012 I'm not sure how he insulted the customers by predicting the future of film? If anything, I think it would be in Leica's interest if film kept going strong, but I'm sure that they if anyone have a pretty realistic idea of where film is heading. I would personally be more insulted if he said something to the extent of "film is doing great, go out and invest in a bunch of film gear". Regarding the movie industry switching to digital, is not entirely true. If you have at least a decent budget and am not going to do a lot of special effects, a lot of us still shoot with film. With moving images, there is still quite a gap in image quality between film and digital. Digital can show higher resolution, but film is still more pleasing aesthetically, to the point that even the average audience prefers watching something shot with film. In time, I have no doubt that the industry will switch to digital, but it's not come nearly as far in that direction as still photography has. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scsambrook Posted May 30, 2012 Share #30 Posted May 30, 2012 M9reno's staement that "My problem with the "end of film" is not so much with what was said, but with who said it and why. That a business should try to sell new products by consciously (or even unconsciously) alienating even a fraction of its customers, and appear to turn its back on a powerful part of its own history, seems insane to me" seems, if he will forgive me saying so, to be wanting of some good reason. I can't for the life of me see how Kauffman is alienating anyone. He may be depressing those who wish film to continue as a long-term viable image recording medium, but it certainly looks as though film demand is declining towards a point where it will cease to be viable for large scale manufacture. Moving to cater for present and future demand is what keeps businesses alive, not maintaining inventory and capacity for products which, no matter how sadly, are no longer commercially viable. One definition of "history" is an eventful past, something which is certainly true of the Leica camera and which today's company certainly isn't turning its back on. History is, essentially, what is now past, but the traditions embedded in the company's history seem to be very much alive and kicking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alw Posted May 30, 2012 Share #31 Posted May 30, 2012 Okay, so let me put it another way. Apart from Leica, name one camera manufacturer that still offers a new 35 mm film camera. I'll start - Nikon will make an F6 to order. Others? Canon don't seem to. Voigtländer, Zeiss, at least, if we´re not counting the Lomo-industry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicafan! Posted May 30, 2012 Share #32 Posted May 30, 2012 Why is everyone so obsessed with Leica bringing out a CSC? There are loads of great CSCs already out there which are more than adequate for any photographer. There's no need for Leica to bring out one of these cameras - forget about the red dot and go look at what is on offer - you should be able to find something you like if you want a CSC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted May 30, 2012 Share #33 Posted May 30, 2012 From what I've seen of the Berlin presentations, the Leica guys had all the sartorial elegance of William Hague's tory party when he made them all wear baseball caps to make them appeal to younger voters! Plain black T-shirts must appeal to millionaire collectors of Hermes editions then?! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.poulton Posted May 30, 2012 Share #34 Posted May 30, 2012 Even Erwin Puts is predicting the discontinuance of the MP in the next year or so. John, This is rather disturbing - maybe the MP will be available only via a-la-carte? ie made to order? Christian Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alw Posted May 30, 2012 Share #35 Posted May 30, 2012 I´m glad I´ll be receiving a new MP tomorrow then. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted May 30, 2012 Share #36 Posted May 30, 2012 They are made that way now. I wouldn't imagine many being on dealer shelves anywhere. I had to wait about 6 weeks for mine, this time last year. They are made in batches (as are M7s), when the order book has sufficient numbers to set up a specific line. If you are lucky, you will be at the end of the book and the wait is short. If they have just made a batch, then your wait might be a little longer. There was a problem with the supply to Leica of one of the MP's components last year - I wonder if this has now been resolved. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 30, 2012 Share #37 Posted May 30, 2012 Voigtländer, Zeiss, at least, if we´re not counting the Lomo-industry. Okay, Zeiss and Voigtlander. Never so much as seen a Zeiss Ikon in real life, and the only Voigtlander I've seen is my father's Bessamatic, circa 1952. Hardly good examples of film camera production being alive and well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted May 30, 2012 Share #38 Posted May 30, 2012 Somewhat related to this prediction, I wanted to have a color film developed 2 weeks ago on a saturday, and visited 2 photography shops, both advertising 1 hr service. No such luck - "we do not provide that service in the weekend":eek:... This made me smile, Hema of all places. Was one of the two shops you visited Hafo down in the centre? I haven't tried 1-hour developing on a Saturday there but it would be good to know of any restriction. Cheers Philip Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker Posted May 30, 2012 Share #39 Posted May 30, 2012 Okay, Zeiss and Voigtlander. Never so much as seen a Zeiss Ikon in real life, and the only Voigtlander I've seen is my father's Bessamatic, circa 1952. Hardly good examples of film camera production being alive and well. Nonsense. Cameras | Robert White Photographic Ltd Cameras | Robert White Photographic Ltd The Classic Camera Ltd Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 30, 2012 Share #40 Posted May 30, 2012 I would personally be more insulted if he said something to the extent of "film is doing great, go out and invest in a bunch of film gear". That is not the only alternative. He could simply have said: "We have a wonderful new digital B&W, etc, etc, but Leica has a long film tradition, we continue to believe in film, and we still sell excellent film cameras." I don't see how that would either be false, out of touch, or offensive to anyone. There is an element of leadership wanting here as well. Where would Apple be now without Steve Jobs' "Reality Distortion Field"? If any company should have the vision and the courage to stand up for film as an artistic medium, and for its film cameras as mechanical masterpieces, against a "reality" of film-doomsdayers, it should be Leica. Perhaps what the "end of film" comment betrays, in the end, is the company's insecurity about the MM as a product. As with most insecurities, the answer is always to put down something else, usually whatever makes you feel insecure. Even the matter of dress and presentation, the cool black T, betrays an insecurity against the claim that a B&W camera is deeply uncool. At least they kept Seal relatively out of the way. The whole product launch in Berlin, at least from this distance, and with the "end of film" comment firmly in my mind, was handled in a shockingly unprofessional way. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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