Panasonic in talks to buy Leica from Mr. Kaufmann

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How do we know Leica is not making money? Do we have access to their P&L? I think I am just being naive thinking that Leica is OK, but can't see why they would. Overall Leica customer can still afford Leica.

 

-tanka

[Riley]

You dont get Leica quality in a job shop

 

The part of the factory where the lenses are made is sealed from the rest, populated by people in White coats , with kit that tests and checks every single element. It's very sophisticated and it takes hours to make each element

 

The metal parts are precision made (the cut away Tri-Elmar is a work of art)

 

heres a little story of interest

During WWII, when Rolls Royce engine manufacture and development at Derby became so injured by bombing, RR found themselves unable to supply US aircraft builders such as Republic with the number of engines required. They wouldn't have been able to fulfil 10% of the orders. So US auto makers were seconded to supply, and Packard was the chosen manufacturer.

 

When the first batch of engines was built, they couldn't even turn the engines over, the tolerances that auto builders use were a lot finer than RR by virtue of mass manufacture. RR hand fit parts, each component was selected from a batch and hand fit to the block, for auto makers this process went out with Henry Ford. Packard had adopted standardization, and could build to finer tolerances than RR, and this was around 1941/2

 

Eventually Packard got the line running, but the whole engine was virtually redesigned for a different tolerance spec, and eventually was to produce more power.

 

I think you vastly underestimate the manufacturing capability of CNC maching, indeed I know so.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Riley]

You dont get Leica quality in a job shop

 

The part of the factory where the lenses are made is sealed from the rest, populated by people in White coats , with kit that tests and checks every single element. It's very sophisticated and it takes hours to make each element

 

The metal parts are precision made (the cut away Tri-Elmar is a work of art)

 

Panasonics machines are capable of spitting lenses out in seconds, as it stands right now is that the same? Absolutely not, but I feel it would be within 95% of what Leica do, that last 5% is what Leica achieve by hand, with caveats on metal internals and the size of the optics. All Panasonic have to do is rejig for finer tolerances, adopt better materials selection, and utilize Leica's know how in design, and deepen the polishing regime.

 

All manufacturers use machines like these, the difference between kit lenses and their best optics is the build design, choice in materials, the time they spend on the grinds and polishing.

 

the worlds very best optical machines, those of the huge telescopes built for deep space astronomy are built by machines, wherever those machines exist. Still hand processes are not uncommon, even Olympus top quality lenses like the 300/2.8 are hand made and available only on a MTO (made to order) basis.

[sdai]

No panic, please ... even if a takeover happens, Panasonic could offer to rehire some Leica employees, right? If they want to continue to work in the way they are used to, why not?

 

Japanese companies operating in the US hire US employees, Japanese companies operating in UK hire British employees, Japanese companies operating in Germany hires German employees, what's the friggin' big deal?

 

Maike Harberts used to work for Canon Deutscheland, don't you know?

 

If "Made in Germany" makes you happy why Panasonic can't do it?

 

Next time, Panasonic executives will show you how "we" build "Leica" lenses in Solms.

[Riley]

this page is a bit old now, but you can get the idea

AjaxNetPhoto.com Photography news & information: Modernology of Manufacturing

 

"Their partnership with Leica started in August 2000 for video cameras; it was then expanded to digital cameras in July 2001. In the past two years, Matsushita invented their own automation system, which enabled them to reduce the production cost to half."

[Goldie]

I find some of the descriptions of fine mechanical engineering in the last few posts glib in the extreme.

[Riley]

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it is necessary to reduce the jargon

FWIW, I have an honours degree in Business Aviation, and majored in Industrial Engineering

[ErikFive]

No offense Andy and im not usually a Leica basher, but I have heard of three different people getting faulty(not working at all like they should) brand new 50 lux asph´s from the dealer. That shouldnt occur when they are hand crafted and hand checked by people in white coats. I do love Leica glass though

 

You dont get Leica quality in a job shop

 

The part of the factory where the lenses are made is sealed from the rest, populated by people in White coats , with kit that tests and checks every single element. It's very sophisticated and it takes hours to make each element

 

The metal parts are precision made (the cut away Tri-Elmar is a work of art)

[bill]

I find some of the descriptions of fine mechanical engineering in the last few posts glib in the extreme.

 

Whereas I found them accessible and interesting. To each their own.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[marknorton]

I don't think Leica need help making lenses - they define the state of the art though it's only achieved if cost is no object, witness the new Summiluxes and the Noctilux. There would be scope for a more value orientated lens line. Originally that was the Summarits but even the humble 35mm is now about the same as the stellar Nikon 14-24mm f2.8 zoom.

 

Their problem is surely cameras. The new world of sensors, electronics and software is not their stock-in-trade and that's where they need help. That's where Panasonic could bring something to the party.

[4X5B&W]

The main reason why most Leica lenses are better than lenses by other manufacturers is that they use the very best glass, regardless of cost.

 

Do we really think Cosina is using the most expensive glass for their designs.....I don't think so.

 

Most manufacturers use computers to design lenses that are pretty close to those of Leica or Zeiss, what they don't do is spring for the very best glass to make the design optimum, because they know that no one will pay Leica like prices for these lenses.

 

Yes, Leica probably puts more effort into QC, but the manufacturing tolerances for Cosina probably aren't all that much different to Leica or Zeiss.

 

Better materials and QC, is essentially what we pay for with Leica lenses.

[Goldie]

I agree with your points Mark.

However speaking of Nikon lenses, I was recently using a new 24-70 f2.8 and compared to a Leica lense the build quality was pretty dismal, in particular the front element assembly can be gripped and easily wobbled around; I wonder what this says about optical centering etc.

It's my guess that a Japanese built lense of the same quality as Leica produce would only be marginally cheaper and this solely due to the historically lower wage rates in Japan.

[Goldie]

All Panasonic have to do is rejig for finer tolerances, adopt better materials selection, and utilize Leica's know how in design, and deepen the polishing regime.

 

And that is where the costs start to rise exponentially.

[sdai]

Their problem is surely cameras. The new world of sensors, electronics and software is not their stock-in-trade and that's where they need help. That's where Panasonic could bring something to the party.

 

Who will help in a world where capitalism rules?

 

Been with Panasonic for so many years, Leica still can't build a D Lux boasting Made in Germany.

[graeme_hutton]

Just think - An M9 by next month, M9.2 the following year, M10 in 2010, M11 in 2011, M12 in 2012 and so on.......Should have some incapacitated with expectation here I would think.

 

Graeme

[andybarton]

I am sure that Leica don't want or need to build a D Lux in Germany.

[sdai]

Better materials and QC, is essentially what we pay for with Leica lenses.

 

Adding labor/operational costs in front of everything ...

 

I just went to the Leica corporate web site but can't find the pdf anymore. There used to be a financial disclosure or something like with numbers explaining their cost structures.

 

Leica's operational costs are a whopping 40% something, almost equal to their material costs, which could never happen in any Japanese company.

 

What drags down American's auto industry is almost the same thing, all the union leaders used to play hardball are now kneeing down and begging their employers.

[sdai]

I am sure that Leica don't want or need to build a D Lux in Germany.

 

I can bet they don't know how ... no offense intended of course, just a matter of fact.

 

If they know how to build a D Lux, then they must know about Panasonic's Venus engine because it's mostly a camera on one chip, by the time they know about Venus, then they'll have much less to no difficulty in building a M9, R10, or whatever.

 

Leica has almost gained nothing from the treaty with Panasonic except OEM'd these D Lux C Lux cameras, how much have these cameras contributed to their bottom line? they don't help their corporate image either.

[wildlightphoto]

... DPR forum provides more useful information than all this blabla here...

 

You must be joking. There's far more disinformation, ego protection, brand fanboyism and rumor-mongering on DPR than I've ever seen here.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[xjr]

A disaster of Biblical proportions !