EVF M rumoured

[jaapv]

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30 minutes ago, T25UFO said:

The Visoflex is an afterthought, an attempt to make the camera something it isn’t.  The resolution is poor and it looks just plain ugly on what is a classic design camera.  It defeats the whole purpose of a rangefinder.

You want macro?  Use a different camera.  You want a long telephoto?  Use a different camera.  Can’t afford two different Leica cameras?  Buy something cheap for other uses, there are plenty of options.

Just don’t mess with the Messsucher.

The Visoflex is not an afterthought. Leica has been making Visoflex housings and auxiliary viewfinders since the 1930-ies. It is an integral part of the M system and of the Barnack cameras before that. 
The only thing that happened with the 240 is that they adapted the the idea to digital after a long pause in production of the mechanical ones. Users had to make do with old models. At one time Leica made long lenses with V-mount ( which is the M mount with a long register distance) which could only be used with a Visoflex housing. 
It is nothing more and nothing less than an auxiliary device to extend the usability of the camera, like being able to use wideangle and long lenses and macro. 

[Derbyshire Man]

8 hours ago, Stevejack said:

Do you still find this on o1-pro? It's been very accurate for me with the higher reasoning models but anything below o1-pro (and sometimes o3-mini-high) is basically useless you already know the answers. However, as a tool for extracting information (without inferring 'answers' from that information) the chain of thought reasoning has become very good. 

The problem is it's based on inductive reasoning and all too often the source material for the facts and probabilities (especially if trawling through the internet/fora) is full of nonsense. Reminds me of meta analysis papers built of 15 tiny studies all with majors study design issues, pretending that 15 turds taken together will make a golden egg; an error of inductive reasoning and all too often sold as a product of deductive logic. 

Sorry, off topic, not that I'm sure the topic is worth staying on!

People forget that depending on source AI is just as likely to be Artificial Idiocy as Artificial Intelligence (referring to machine learning AI rather than expert systems).

Edited February 11 by Derbyshire Man

[Derbyshire Man]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The Visoflex is not an afterthought. Leica has been making Vidoflexes and auxiliary viewfinders since the 1930-ies. It is an integral part of the M system and of the Barnack cameras before that. 
the only thing that happened with the 240 is that they adapted the the idea to digital after a long pause in production of the mechanical ones. Users had to make do with old models. 
 

Where I do agree is that it isn't good enough, it needs to be higher resolution. Much higher resolution, I can manually focus by eye on the R5 mk2 in narrow DOF lenses without mag, very unreliable on the visoflex 2, 3.7mp is not enough, especially for the price!

[jaapv]

That is due to it being an auxiliary device. Leica rarely manages to get them “ good enough “. Like the auxiliary viewfinders by Zeiss and Voigtländer outperformed the Leica ones. 

[Borna]

Probably being mentioned, It seems that many modern Photographers using an M-house now days only uses the screen and the live-view function. E.g. Allan. 

Bottom plate gone. Now the EVF is rumored to come. Sad. I hope they can at least make a hybrid like the Fuji x-100 series. 

[T25UFO]

15 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Leica has been making Visoflex housings and auxiliary viewfinders since the 1930-ies

Oh come on . . . that was an even more ugly and ungainly attempt to make the rangefinder into a single lens reflex.  Did it make the SLR obsolete and persuade everyone o buy a rangefinder?  Er, I don't think so.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

George Santayana  -  The Life Of Reason  -  1905

[jaapv]

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Well as somebody who used the Visoflex 3 from 1987 to 2013 and beyond with lenses up to 800 mm and with success, I can only say that you simply don’t understand the device   It was never intended to make SLRs obsolete. In fact in 1935 when the PLOOT was introduced reflex cameras were a rarity. It was intended to extend the usability of Leica cameras. It still is. 

[T25UFO]

3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well as somebody who used the Visoflex 3 from 1987 to 2013 with lenses up to 800 mm and with success, I can only say that you simply don’t understand the device   It was never intended to make SLRs obsolete. In fact in 1935 when the PLOOT was introduced reflex cameras were a rarity. It was intended to extend the usability of Leica cameras. It still is. 

You are right, of course, old moderators always know best.  I wasn't alive in 1935 and I have no idea what a PLOOT is.  All these strange words or acronyms, living in the past and condemned to repeat it, just as George said.

I'm done, checking out 😜

[TeleElmar135mm]

The only good thing about an M12 EVF will be that this thread ends. 

But I'm afraid of how many new ones will come up.  

[Steve Ash]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb 3D-Kraft.com:

There are simpler ways to make life difficult.

I completely agree. For example by wasting your time on a discussion in the internet about a camera that you have no appreciation for or interest in.

[Pelu2010]

1 hour ago, T25UFO said:

You are right, of course, old moderators always know best.  I wasn't alive in 1935 and I have no idea what a PLOOT is.  All these strange words or acronyms, living in the past and condemned to repeat it, just as George said.

I'm done, checking out 😜

I think that the information provided was not there to show off. Just to explain why something is of importance for some users and this might not be explainable or logic for other users with other needs. ok? can we help you to get up again? 

[UliWer]

Btw.: What is the price range you expect an „EVF-M“ will have?

Same as M with optical viewfinder? Well, after all it is an M. Really?

Same as Q or SL? Why should I pay more for a camera which does not even have the features of the other product lines? 

Less than Q and SL? Makes sense as it doesn‘t allow autofocus, no adaption of L-mount lenses etc. 

Edited February 11 by UliWer

[lct]

Really

[DadDadDaddyo]

(Old grump voice...)

"Kids these days! They can't tell a PLOOT from a NOOKY!"

 

 

Edited February 11 by DadDadDaddyo
... had to clear my throat

[Olaf_ZG]

8 hours ago, Borna said:

Probably being mentioned, It seems that many modern Photographers using an M-house now days only uses the screen and the live-view function. E.g. Allan. 

Bottom plate gone. Now the EVF is rumored to come. Sad. I hope they can at least make a hybrid like the Fuji x-100 series. 

It will be the long awaited xpro4.

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, Borna said:

Probably being mentioned, It seems that many modern Photographers using an M-house now days only uses the screen and the live-view function. E.g. Allan. 

Bottom plate gone. Now the EVF is rumored to come. Sad. I hope they can at least make a hybrid like the Fuji x-100 series. 

If you check his YT channel, you will notice that Alan Schaller uses the rangefinder, EVF, LCD, or nothing with his Monochrom. He would probably like a tiltable rear screen for his dog and cat photography.

P.S.: Fuji cameras do not have rangefinders.

Edited February 11 by SrMi

[Overgaard]

9 hours ago, jaapv said:

"I can only say that you simply don’t understand the device"

There was a time when the LUF was a pleasant place where people spoke respectfully and gave advice (when they had it).

The reason to have a forum would be to get inspired, learn and share.  

[Steve Ash]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Overgaard:

There was a time when the LUF was a pleasant place where people spoke respectfully and gave advice (when they had it).

The reason to have a forum would be to get inspired, learn and share.  

I still think it is a pleasant place. This special thread is very controversial as there are very contrary and speculative views on a topic that is currently very blurred, vague and undefined. There currently is no specification of an EVF M and the expectations about its appearance and potential functionality broadly vary. So some dissipative energy might prevail. I agree nobody should get offensive or feel offended about it.

[Overgaard]

There is an interesting and cozy podcast here where Stefan Daniel tells about Leica and products. It is worth noting that towards the end of the podcast, he encourage people to not have too high hopes for a lot of new things.

I think if one look over the recent releases of M cameras, such as the Glossy Black, it confirm what level of newness to (not) expect. I think that it is likely that if an EVF version arises, it will simply be moving the EVF from external housing, to inside the Leica M11 body. In the last two-three years Stefan Daniel have moved from "it'll be over my dead body" to later stating (at an LSI meeting) that if Leica can sell 800-1,000 units, it would be worth doing. He also stated to me, that "the only way to find out, is making it."

Between now and the probable release of Leica M12 in spring 2027 there would be time to test it. 

There are for sure some emotional barriers, just like when it was discussed putting a digital sensor inside a Leica M, which had always been a film camera. It did work out, and today we have still three Leica M film cameras in production and available, as well as the Leica M11 digital, plus Q3 and SL3. 

Based on that, the rangefinder version will never die, I'm sure.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Crem]

37 minutes ago, Overgaard said:

There is an interesting and cozy podcast here where Stefan Daniel tells about Leica and products. It is worth noting that towards the end of the podcast, he encourage people to not have too high hopes for a lot of new things.

I think if one look over the recent releases of M cameras, such as the Glossy Black, it confirm what level of newness to (not) expect. I think that it is likely that if an EVF version arises, it will simply be moving the EVF from external housing, to inside the Leica M11 body. In the last two-three years Stefan Daniel have moved from "it'll be over my dead body" to later stating (at an LSI meeting) that if Leica can sell 800-1,000 units, it would be worth doing. He also stated to me, that "the only way to find out, is making it."

Between now and the probable release of Leica M12 in spring 2027 there would be time to test it. 

There are for sure some emotional barriers, just like when it was discussed putting a digital sensor inside a Leica M, which had always been a film camera. It did work out, and today we have still three Leica M film cameras in production and available, as well as the Leica M11 digital, plus Q3 and SL3. 

Based on that, the rangefinder version will never die, I'm sure.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

https://www.iainfarrell.com/prime-lenses-podcast/blog-post-title-one-99kbz-brgy6-r8a6z-ftgy9-2px27-pfg8m-385mm-wtxz4-xdkyb-gy8fd-7db4e-tw2zl-gxkc3-3k6rw-h6dj9-ftzwl-tx8ay-w4kxx-2jmt2-8w6z2-7ke34-dmf28-f2j5p-rzk4b-dj9xj-jndsj-64rft-3d3ex-sbljh-m4p5p

 

I want to touch on the "if Leica can sell 800-1,000 units" issue. I think simply moving the existing Visoflex 2 into the body is very much an inferior experience vs a real rangefinder. I'm sure some people would like, but I don't understand who the target market is and I question if that's 800-1000 sales or not. I have a similar experience today (more or less with my SL2-S). It's great for wide open F1.4 lenses, but anything in the F5.6 - F11 range means I start switching to zone focusing if I need to work fast... and I end up wishing I had an OVF (28mm - 50mm lenses are what I normally use).

I believe what it needs to be successful is an overall experience that is significantly better than just an integrated Visoflex 2. Tech ideas that would make this possible: phase detect pixels, LIDAR sensor like an iPhone has for depth mapping, eye/face/object tracking, and a really slick manual focus UI/UX that uses all this additional data. When Leica eventually pulls this off I think a lot of people will find EVF manual focusing faster/better than an OVF.

Edited February 11 by Crem