Why I gave up on the Leica SL3

[Luke_Miller]

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Just a couple of points after reading the posts in this thread:

Phase detect autofocus is the older technology.  My Nikon F4 from 1988 used it. 

Phase detect autofocus in mirrorless cameras requires an image sensor that contains the phase detect sensors.  These phase detect sensors replace the photosites that would have been in that location.  Early model phase detect mirrorless cameras could produce image banding in some circumstances as a result .

Smaller camera makers who do not produce their own sensors may have difficulty in affordably sourcing sensors that support phase detect autofocus.

 

 

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[JTLeica]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Gotta love gaslighting. 

I’m not following?

[BernardC]

16 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

Smaller camera makers who do not produce their own sensors may have difficulty in affordably sourcing sensors that support phase detect autofocus.

You could argue that Canon is the only brand that produces their own sensors. Sony consumer electronics and Sony Semiconductors are separate divisions of a big conglomerate, kind of like Yamaha pianos and motorcycles. They have a special relationship, but Sony Semi's main customers are smartphone makers, by orders of magnitude. Other camera brands have dabbled in sensor design/customization, including Leica. Arri is probably the most successful in that regard, but they work with partner fabs (one of which also counts Leica as customers).

I'm hoping that we will finally see Panasonic's fabled organic sensor, or Sigma's new FOVEON, during this decade. It would shake-up an industry that is starting to stagnate.

[Pelu2010]

On 11/12/2024 at 3:11 PM, Markey said:

For me it stems from the fact that if you are going to provide AF it is reasonable to expect it to be at least on par with that offered by the rest of the market. I still have not heard any explanation as to why Leica cannot do this.

Is the technology difficult ?

Whenever this subject is raised nobody has addresses that instead the reply is  .... buy a different camera or deploy different skills.

Can`t argue with any of that but the question remains why is Leica so uncompetitive in the rather important area.

I`m curious.

Just trying to understand the logic.

 

 

As far as I have checked this topic: 

1. I bet the older motors of the SL lenses are not as fast as the motors of the competition lenses. 

2. Software it seems that Leica is conservative with this feature. 

3. Knowhow and timing. 

Future: I am sure there will be updates. 

Do I need updates to the AF. 

Yes > if it's dark > it would be good to have more control. 

Yes > if there are many people in the shot > it would be helpful if the software would give us better results. 

I worked with Sony and with Canon > Canon new cameras are remarkable. The errors are very small. 

 

But I see something that is bothering me most: 

We cannot limit the AF to work in between two points. 

That would make my life so much easier, instead of having hunting AF form ∞ to 20 cm. 

I hope the AF gets stickier in future. 

 

cheers Peter 

 

 

 

[jaapv]

Well, Sigma lenses have full AF, 0-3 m,  3m - inf in a switch on the lens on their longer lenses which is very useful to increase AF speed. Strangely Leica decided to drop this switch -and a number of extremely useful other switches on their version of the 70-200 as well in a quest for esthetics.

Historically Leica never had much interest in AF. They invented it and donated the patents to Minolta, AKA Sony nowadays…  Their motivation at the time:  Leica photographers are accomplished enough not to need this… 🤔

[LocalHero1953]

The 60mm TL lens has 2-range focusing, but very much a macro range and a normal range. No switch - you either did it via the menu, or manually wound between the two, which took a lot of wrist action and took for ever. And of course the Q series has the same, with a switch; notionally a 'macro' switch, though it takes a flexible definition of 'macro'.

A 'portrait' range (<2m) would be handy.

Edited November 14, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

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I cannot imagine what is wrong with a few useful switches on the lens, like focus range with a switch point between 2 and 3 m., OIS modes, AF on/off and one for EVF stabilizer. Although the last could be a menu item.  But it might look less Leica with the gain of useability 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

All the switches could be simply moved to buttons on camera if they wanted. Nothing special about stop af switches or IBIS or focus range. Almost everyone else has moved to a programable ring and buttons on lens anyway.

I’d just like a focus clutch and aperture rings. That’d do.

Gordon

[jaapv]

On 11/13/2024 at 3:44 PM, BernardC said:

You could argue that Canon is the only brand that produces their own sensors.

Yes, but Canon uses DPAF, which, albeit faster, can create artefacts and banding.

[lx1713]

If you boil this conversation down to its elements, its what we choose as the priority?

Absolute AF speed or absolute image quality, what is your priority. For key feature, Fast AF and Excellent quality and Compactness, Pick two. At the end, your decision is limited to your priorities after picking two of the key feature of the lens.  

If a lens is designed for absolute image quality, has glass elements that are heavier than another manufacturer's "glass" or "plastic elements", does it not make sense that the design would be bigger and heavier and the weight of all that glass affect the speed of the AF of the heavier lens.

If a lens is designed for absolute AF speed, doesn't it make sense that there may be tradeoffs. Less elements to correct aberrations, more uncorrectable distortion, more vignetting due to a smaller image circle, less precise focus steps in the lens engine, less sharp across the sensor at wide open apertures, etc. Since all these qualities aren't really important in view of the fundamental choice made. An image captured beats quality of image implies an urgency to that speed of capture. Again, that's a choice, right?

A priority of speed.

Then it becomes the keeper rate. What is the hit rate of the AF under evaluation? I gave up a 97% hit rate of a Canon 1 DIII for the 70-75% hit rate of the SL 601. Is that justifiable? Why lose that 97%? Image quality. I learned to live with it. AF vs image quality. Avoid the difficult situations. I just do simpler event like dance, weddings, chasing Presidents, headshots, etc. No sports. Now my keeper rate is up to about 80-90% with the SL2S. Its reasonably good.

There's a strange thing though. My culling rate is now 50% compared to the 50% keepers previously. Exactly the same statistics. I didn't become a worse photographer with the poorer AF. 

I learn to live with it.

Edited November 18, 2024 by lx1713

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

Yes, but Canon uses DPAF, which, albeit faster, can create artefacts and banding.

No Canon is faster than the A7R5, which uses the same base silicon as the SL3. And my Canon R%’s have no banding issues even at massive print sizes. All the banding issues are solved at a software level and have been for a couple of generations. Same for Nikon, Sony and Fujifilm.

Gordon

[jaapv]

sorry, DPAF is something completely different and specific to Canon. 
https://www.usa.canon.com/learning/training-articles/training-articles-list/intro-to-dual-pixel-autofocus-dpaf

And Canon makes their own sensors. 
https://petapixel.com/2022/01/08/image-sensors-are-the-silicon-heart-of-camera-companies/

[FlashGordonPhotography]

23 hours ago, jaapv said:

sorry, DPAF is something completely different and specific to Canon. 
https://www.usa.canon.com/learning/training-articles/training-articles-list/intro-to-dual-pixel-autofocus-dpaf

And Canon makes their own sensors. 
https://petapixel.com/2022/01/08/image-sensors-are-the-silicon-heart-of-camera-companies/

If you’re referring to me I know. And I agree. I have multiple Canon bodies.

I just said that banding is no longer an issue and that a Sony focuses as fast as any current Canon. I didn’t mean to imply they use the exact same tech to get there.

Gordon

[tom0511]

On 11/14/2024 at 2:34 PM, jaapv said:

Well, Sigma lenses have full AF, 0-3 m,  3m - inf in a switch on the lens on their longer lenses which is very useful to increase AF speed. Strangely Leica decided to drop this switch -and a number of extremely useful other switches on their version of the 70-200 as well in a quest for esthetics.

Historically Leica never had much interest in AF. They invented it and donated the patents to Minolta, AKA Sony nowadays…  Their motivation at the time:  Leica photographers are accomplished enough not to need this… 🤔

Thats why in case of 70200 I bought the Sigma and not the Leica. It is lighter as well and also costs less. OK, the Leica looks nicer, but IMO thats it.

 

[tom0511]

Overall I believe that Leica charges high prices for their cameras and lenses. So there is one compromise we allready have when buying it: price.

So IMO it is fine to ask for solid build, good IQ AND good AF.

By the way, I have used the SL3 for a few sports events (surfing, handball, athletics) now, and for me the biggest problem has not been the AF itself, but the slowish readout leading to a blurry viewfinder when shooting C-AF. Sometimes it is like blind shooting. Still I got some usable images. It is much easier and better success rate with my Canon R3 though.

But I find SL3 AF has been a step forward over the previous bodies.

 

[PBart]

I know I'm late to this topic but just wanted to add my take on this. I've been a professional commercial photographer for over 26 years. I've used Nikon and Hasselblad professionally during my first 10 years but always had a Leica M camera for my personal work.

I eventually bought into the Leica S System and it was awesome for image quality but broke down constantly with poor customer support. Once Leica released the first SL camera, I was excited even though it wasn't ready and couldn't replace my current camera at the time. I knew it was a work in progress. As much as I love medium format, the S2 was limited. These days a commercial photographer needs flexibility with lens options, video abilities and of course still maintain image quality. The SL2 came along and met my needs even though to some it had many issues with keeping up with action. I'm not an action photographer and deal with interior design and food photography. I use my cameras in manual mode and don't use autofocus. I then sold my medium format S2 and bought 2 SL2 cameras and worked them hard. Not without any issues while using Capture One w/ Live View. 

Today I now use the SL3 and love it for what it is. I'm not a sports photographer or need to work with much action but it works great for what I do. I tried out Canon and Nikon recently to see the image files and they just didn't feel right to me. I do like the specs of what they can do with video and are also fully compatible with Capture One's direct capture and live view features.

My only complaint is that I wish the Leica SL3 was 100% compatible with Capture One. I still have connection issues while tethered when the media card fills up to a certain point and decides not to connect unless I swap out for another card that is freshly formatted. The camera should not disconnect when using a 256GB card that is only 1/4 full. Weird, I'll be emailing Capture One today and as usual they'll blame Leica or say they are aware of it but no solution. BTW, the Leica SL2 did the same thing so I thought it would have been fixed on the SL3. 

 

[jaapv]

The feud between Leica and C1 is longstanding... You are right: Leica works best with Adobe products  (and Affinity, ON1 and DXO)...

[SrMi]

21 hours ago, jaapv said:

The feud between Leica and C1 is longstanding... You are right: Leica works best with Adobe products  (and Affinity, ON1 and DXO)...

I guess you meant the feud between Hasselblad and C1. Leica and C1 collaborate (https://www.captureone.com/en/explore-features/leica). However, only Adobe supports all Leica features.

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[PBart]

11 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I guess you meant the feud between Hasselblad and C1. Leica and C1 collaborate (https://www.captureone.com/en/explore-features/leica). However, only Adobe supports all Leica features.

Adobe doesn't support the Live View feature from what I know for the SL3 but Capture One does. So far Capture One is my only option to work professionally with clients proofing shots. Plus, I found Capture One an upgrade as far as quality of images. 

[Jeff S]

On 12/4/2024 at 2:26 PM, jaapv said:

The feud between Leica and C1 is longstanding... You are right: Leica works best with Adobe products  (and Affinity, ON1 and DXO)...

DXO does not support any monochrome sensor based camera, and has no plans to do so. And they can be very slow to support various other Leica new cameras/lenses, sometimes more than a year, stating difficulties in obtaining product.  This information was provided directly from a company rep, before the Pandemic, when I was researching Adobe alternatives in case Adobe ever mandates cloud storage.

Jeff