Why I gave up on the Leica SL3

[JohnSantaF4]

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A more positive bookend for this thread would be to simply state one's best use case for the SL3. That I would be interested in.

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[Smogg]

20 minutes ago, JohnSantaF4 said:

A more positive bookend for this thread would be to simply state one's best use case for the SL3. That I would be interested in.

This is the best digital back for APO SL lenses😀

[kiwidad]

On 10/31/2024 at 6:54 AM, Simone_DF said:

Do you folks also hop on a horse to go buy groceries, or do you take a car? Because even though it's possible to go buy groceries on a cart, I bet most people use a car because in 2024 it's the most convenient way to do it. The same concept applies to cameras.

To be more accurate, do you go in a Ford or Ferrari to buy groceries. Both can capably do the job but the experience is different! Your analogy would be like comparing NikonF to any modern autofocus!

I currently do not own any SL series camera but they are superior to my M11 at focusing on moving objects of any kind. Are they as good as the Nikon and Canons of the day? DO you buy groceries in a Ferrari? I can’t believe folk in years past used manual focus cameras to shoot sports and things like weddings? It seem incomprehensible to the modern photographers skillset!

[FlashGordonPhotography]

15 hours ago, Cronilux said:

My experience comes in conclusion with the 28-45/1.8 DG DN Art from Sigma, 24/1.8 Lumix, 35/2 Summicron (non Apo), 50/1.8 Lumix and 50/1.2 DG DN Sigma Art.

When increasing the box size in my experience you are just hoping for the best and the camera just grabs focus somewhere. I want to be in control of the focus point. Example. I tried to photograph a church through the gap of two buildings and with the larger field it just grabbed the outer buildings. I had to adjust the field size to its tiniest setting to grab the church in the middle. 

Your description sounds like the old DSLR days, where you only had one cross AF point in the center. Why should that be the same way with the SL3, that has 315 AF points and PDAF? Honest question!

With „linear“ I assume you talk about the AF profile and you serving all to „0“ or the middle, right? If yes, I did that.

Linear, refers to the manual focus action. I like it short. 90 degrees works well for me. This needs to be changes as it's not the default manual focus action. Camera is set to manual focus. SL3's default for MF is to have back button focusing using the joystick push. Now you have easy access to consistent manual focus and AF. It's simple to prefocus or set a zone with this configuration. I'll have buttons of profiles set for different changes I might need to make quickly.

And I didn't think I needed to mention that these are some base settings only. Even with an M I have a base setting and then change as a shot requires. Without a base setting how do you know which direction to change things for new situations? If the wide box fails, my system allows instant manual focus correction. If that doesn't work, then switch to spot and try AF again. Same with the AF point. I like to start in the middle. and then move myself. I find this more reliable than the wide AF setting. All these are saved to a custom setting so I can get back to my base instantly. And because I have a base it's faster to then make changes as the shot becomes more dynamic. I also use the normal tracking, quite successfully. This seems more reliable than the intelligent face tracking mode quite often. But that's not my base. It's a custom button away.

I came to my base after learning the camera. Where it shines and where it's not as strong. I test the AF system and exposure system. I shoot test files and see how malleable they are and how the metering works. I know the menus. I've completely customised my camera so I can use it instinctively, the way I like it. Cameras don't just work. You need to thoroughly understand their quirks. As an example, I already know the SL3 ALWAYS grabs the closest thing to the camera in the focus area. Sometimes even if it shouldn't. It'll grab a blade of grass in face detect mode if that grass is in the focus zone. It's not ideal. But since I know how the camera will behave; I can almost always get around issues before they occur. In you church case I'd have changed to spot before even lifting the camera to my eye. My BASE for street is a larger box because the way I shoot, if being dynamic is close in where the subject is the closest object. If I'm not being dynamic, I'm likely using manual focus. I have a button to change the focus mode, drive mode etc. I make changes on the fly without even thinking about it.

The real trick is I know my gear intimately. Every quirk and issue. Every dial and button. Every base setting in every profile I have. I'm incredibly fussy about how I set my cameras up. (Which is why I HATE losing the customisable rear wheel click). I change cameras a lot and even so I have no issues switching, fast and on the fly. For some things I leave the Leica or Hasselblad at home and carry a Sony. But for travel and street my SL3's or X2D's are my weapon of choice. Personally, I gain nothing from my A7R5 in these situations. 

My settings might not be your settings. Just some ideas to try. FWIW, I'm a working travel photographer.

Gordon

[Cronilux]

Hey @FlashGordonPhotography

I know how to work around all these issues, they are not just quirks, but rather poorly programmed algorithms in the camera. I can work around all of them, but it makes the camera less enjoyable. Cause instead of being in the moment, I am in the settings constantly. I have set up all my buttons as well to have quick access. 

So you don’t have any real solution and are also just constantly problem solving. Fine, then this seems to be state of the art with the SL system currently.

Let‘s hope, that the SL3-S will be as good as somebody told me.

[JTLeica]

9 hours ago, JohnSantaF4 said:

A more positive bookend for this thread would be to simply state one's best use case for the SL3. That I would be interested in.

I can confirm it’s the best landscape I have used, the APO lenses are of course peerless. But the SL3, using pinpoint AF with any lens including the APOs focussing supremely accurately and almost instantly.

Pinpoint or similar settings with other cameras always seemed worse than the larger focus box or ‘field’ but on the SL3 it’s better.

In low light, it works like a charm. Having shot Milkyway with dark foregrounds it still manages to find a low. It’ll switch into more of a raking focus mode to find a point of contrast. Of course you need to point it at a more contrast spot but it works like a charm.

My old z7 had a low light focus mode and the sl3 is at least as good if not better.

The SL3 is just not the perfect camera for those wanting fast, continuous Af that or that tracks a subject. For anything else, it’s superb.

I just tried this at the weekend, photographing my friends insane dog whilst on a hike, didn’t stop moving, didn’t go well but I never need a camera for that. I had great success with pinpoint and AFS though even with a slower APO lens.

Leica have one current SL, you cannot expect it to be all things to all people. Can you?

Sony has 6-7 current FF models.

 

Edited November 11 by JTLeica

[Simone_DF]

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10 hours ago, kiwidad said:

I can’t believe folk in years past used manual focus cameras to shoot sports and things like weddings? It seem incomprehensible to the modern photographers skillset!

I do believe that photographers did that IN THE PAST, but we are in 2024, not 1974. I live in the present. For the same reasons I prefer using a laptop instead of a typewriter when writing something. 
Now, if it is your conscious choice to use obsolete tech, be my guest. I also use a film camera occasionally, and I still buy vinyl records, so I do understand the appeal, but the OP is looking for modern performances and finds AF to be inferior to other brands, and like always it starts the litany of old timers and their “but at my time we did thing X”, like the last 40 years of technology improvements do not exist. 

[LocalHero1953]

I looked at the Favourite Images page. At a guess, 90% didn't need AF (i.e. there was enough time to manually focus for 5 minutes if you wanted to). Perhaps three needed fairly fast AF (and one of those was out of focus).

Just putting the argument in context.

(Me, I'm now an old timer who is happy with the AF I have on the SL2-S, for the kind of photos I shoot.)

 

Edited November 11 by LocalHero1953

[Simone_DF]

7 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I looked at the Favourite Images page. At a guess, 90% didn't need AF (i.e. there was enough time to manually focus for 5 minutes if you wanted to).

 

Or perhaps it’s the consequence of bad autofocus, and the other pictures are all blurred, so only the static ones are published.

—

To put things more into context, I think the SL2-S autofocus, while not ideal, it’s fine. I have missed a few shots, but overall it’s ok, I can live with it. The S5II AF is more sticky and reliable, or at least that’s my experience after about 6 months. eventually these improvements will trickle down to the SL3 too, it’s only a matter of when, not if.

 

 

[PeterBoyadjian]

Think we’re due for a firmware update soon. 
🙏🙏🙏🙏

[BernardC]

12 hours ago, kiwidad said:

I can’t believe folk in years past used manual focus cameras to shoot sports and things like weddings? It seem incomprehensible to the modern photographers skillset!

Sports is a perfect subject for AF, since there's generally only one subject, which is centered. I personally found AF to be counter-productive for wedding work, where focus plane is an important narrative tool. You can completely change how an image reads by moving the focus between subjects, even if the composition doesn't change.

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

I do believe that photographers did that IN THE PAST, but we are in 2024, not 1974. I live in the present. For the same reasons I prefer using a laptop instead of a typewriter when writing something. 
Now, if it is your conscious choice to use obsolete tech, be my guest. I also use a film camera occasionally, and I still buy vinyl records, so I do understand the appeal, but the OP is looking for modern performances and finds AF to be inferior to other brands, and like always it starts the litany of old timers and their “but at my time we did thing X”, like the last 40 years of technology improvements do not exist. 

Nothing obsolete about manual focus. In cases where the photographer has to decide the plane of focus -in my case wildlife with branches all over the place in front and behind- even the best AF is useless. Even animal eye recognition does not always help. If the complicated structures do not confuse the system, one will want to control which part of the image needs to be outside DOF. 

[LocalHero1953]

There are undoubtedly times when manual focus will always be quicker than auto focus viz. when the subject doesn't move, but (e.g.) you are waiting for the right expression, for something else to get out of the away, or for the light to change. A lens that doesn't have to be focused will be quicker than one that dumbly checks whether it is still in focus.

Just stating the obvious, but how often does that get forgotten in such black and white debates?

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Nothing obsolete about manual focus. In cases where the photographer has to decide the plane of focus -in my case wildlife with branches all over the place in front and behind- even the best AF is useless. Even animal eye recognition does not always help. If the complicated structures do not confuse the system, one will want to control which part of the image needs to be outside DOF. 

Sure, but as I wrote above, it is your personal choice to disengage autofocus for manual focus. The OP is frustrated with the AF performance of the SL3, and I totally understand their point of view, because it's borderline ok, but nothing to write home about. And telling the OP that "oh, but that's how we did it 70 years ago" doesn't solve their problem, either. Clearly they have different needs, with a faster and more performing autofocus being their top choice in term of features, something that Leica doesn't provide as of today, but who knows in 6 months or in a year what improvements we'll see via firmware, we are still at the first generation for Panasonic's phase detect.  

[jaapv]

The strange thing is that the same AF seems to perform much better in the Panasonic S5ii and offer more features. Maybe a matter of pixel count?  In that case a hypothetical S3S should do considerably better. Of course the lens used makes a huge difference as well. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

13 hours ago, Cronilux said:

Hey @FlashGordonPhotography

I know how to work around all these issues, they are not just quirks, but rather poorly programmed algorithms in the camera. I can work around all of them, but it makes the camera less enjoyable. Cause instead of being in the moment, I am in the settings constantly. I have set up all my buttons as well to have quick access. 

So you don’t have any real solution and are also just constantly problem solving. Fine, then this seems to be state of the art with the SL system currently.

Let‘s hope, that the SL3-S will be as good as somebody told me.

You do know this will apply to ANY system. I can’t set my A7R5 or Canon R5 to AF with tracking and just have 100% reliable focusing. That’s just not reality. If I take any of my cameras (and I have most of them) at some point I have to set up the camera differently and change settings in dynamic shooting situations. Most of these systems have pages of menus for focusing precisely because of this. There is no one solution.

There is currently NO camera that will do what you’re expecting the SL3 to do. And frankly, your complaints seem to actually have little to do with the camera. Or any camera in any brand.

So maybe you’d like to let us all know which camera you have that doesn’t ever need input from the photographer for different shooting circumstances?

And to be very very clear. I own every currently available camera over 40MP except the Phase One, R5II and the Z8. They all need user input, often. They all have their quirks and they all need workarounds to get the best from them. They all have various focus programs and patterns that need to be selected and adjusted. None of them have a *street and travel* focus mode that never screws up. Too many people here seem to expect the impossible and just won’t learn to use their gear.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

The strange thing is that the same AF seems to perform much better in the Panasonic S5ii and offer more features. Maybe a matter of pixel count?  In that case a hypothetical S3S should do considerably better. Of course the lens used makes a huge difference as well. 

Nope. The Sony A7R5, which has the same base silicon as the SL3 stomps on your Panasonic. Monsters it. And really the AF in the SL3 isn’t that far behind the S5ii. Your experience with the SL2 doesn’t represent the SL3.

Of course, cameras like the A7R5 have their own quirks, needs and workarounds. You don’t need to carry a plastic bag for your SL3 in case it rains. The A7R5 is a fine camera but also not perfect.

The real problem is Leicas intentions versus peoples expectations. I don’t think Leica made the SL3 with super fast tracking focus as one of their priorities and some can’t just get the camera isn’t for them and move on.

Gordon

 

[jaapv]

Hmmm... Most reviewers claim it is close to Canon and Nikon. Anyway this discussion is about the SL3, and if the Panasonic easily outperforms the Leica ( not my opinion, but of users that have both, I never claimed personal experience) I still wonder if pixel count is of influence on the Panaleica system. 

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[Smogg]

21 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Hmmm... Most reviewers claim it is close to Canon and Nikon. Anyway this discussion is about the SL3, and if the Panasonic easily outperforms the Leica ( not my opinion, but of users that have both, I never claimed personal experience) I still wonder if pixel count is of influence on the Panaleica system. 

Definitely not close to Canon R5, different leagues

[jaapv]

2 minutes ago, Smogg said:

Definitely not close to Canon R5, different leagues

Not the question I am asking...