Electronic shutter on SL2

[dem331]

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After reading some posts on this forum I have started using the electronic shutter as my default setting (except for some indoor situations).  It’s taken me a while to get used to it because I did like the shutter sound, but now I’m fine with it.

However, I don’t really understand why, with all the body and lens stabilisation features, photographs at 90mm on the SL 24-90mm at 1/125 would at times suffer from motion blur.  
 

Can someone explain please? 

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

The electronic shutter does read each pixel for the specified shutter speed (e.g. 1/2000 sec), but it takes a lot longer to read every pixel on the sensor. It takes of the order of 1/30 sec to read every pixel from top to bottom. This is known as the read-out speed. Unless you have a camera with what is called a 'global shutter' then all cameras do this, some for faster or slower read-out speeds.

This has the inevitable effect of giving you motion blur and subject distortion, and gives interference patterns with certain sorts of lighting that flicker very fast (e.g. at mains frequency) - typically horizontal colour and brightness banding.

The electronic shutter is great for (a) silence and (b) very bright light, but it is not any help in freezing motion!

Edited December 1, 2023 by LocalHero1953

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[dem331]

Thank you for that explanation. I used the wrong terminology, I meant camera shake not motion blur. 
 

But from what you’re saying, it shouldn’t help me with that either? 
 

I seem to remember people saying that under normal outdoor  conditions with the 24-90mm at 90mm 1/125, they preferred to use electronic shutter because they were getting some camera shake.

[LocalHero1953]

No - it wouldn't help with camera shake either! 
If you think you are getting camera shake from shutter slap, then the electronic shutter would help. But if you have very shaky hands or are moving as you shoot, then it will not. You are still shooting at about 1/30sec (I don't know what the exact read-out speed of the SL2 is)

[dem331]

It must be shutter slap they were talking about. I will try and find  the post and reference it here. Thanks. 

[dem331]

This is the thread I had in mind, specifically post 4 by @Luke_Miller

I have noticed some of my images with the 24-90 at 90mm were not quite sharp enough, which I attributed to focus error.  However I now suspect it maybe shutter slap. Unfortunately, I have discarded them so I cannot go back and check.
 

My question was, or, rather, was meant to be, since I did not word it well, “shouldn’t the IBIS + OIS compensate for this when shooting 90mm at 1/125?”
 

 

[Virob]

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My understanding is that typical unstable hand holding motion is relatively slow and can be compensated by IBIS, whereas shutter slap is extremely rapid and too fast for IBIS to react in time.

[goodbokeh]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

No - it wouldn't help with camera shake either! 
If you think you are getting camera shake from shutter slap, then the electronic shutter would help. But if you have very shaky hands or are moving as you shoot, then it will not. You are still shooting at about 1/30sec (I don't know what the exact read-out speed of the SL2 is)

I don't think the ES 1/30sec full sensor travel affects "shaky hands" image blur, it does however produce the jello effect we see with moving objects. The shutter speed, set by the user, controls that portion of the sensor being exposed by the ES at any point in time. That user set shutter speed + IS still controls if image blur is caused by shaky hands.

If the ES is set at 1/125sec (while panning) on a walking person, the relatively still head could be sharp but the swinging arms could be somewhat blurred by the 1/125sec shutter speed and bent by the ES 1/30sec slow sensor travel.

[robb]

I typically use electronic shutter for all outdoor scenes now.  I try to stick to mechanical shutter indoors because I have been affected by banding on the SL2 and color flicker.  Never tried ES on the SL2-s indoors.

Robb

[Jean-Michel]

For an illustration of mechanical vs electronic shutter you could view this video from the mathphotographer: 

 

[JRWhite]

14 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The electronic shutter is great for (a) silence and (b) very bright light, but it is not any help in freezing motion!

I did not know this. Thank you.

[Luke_Miller]

According to threads here on the Leica Forum the critical mechanical shutter speeds fall in the range of 1/80 to 1/160 (IIRC).  My normal event shutter speed is 1/125 which normally will freeze subject motion and is close enough to 1/120 so as to not produce banding from artificial light.  Using 1/125 and mechanical shutter when at the long end of my 24-90 and any focal length with the 90-280 I get shots that are not representative of what the glass is capable of.  Not all the shots (maybe a third) and they are not out of focus - just a touch softer than the others. The issue goes away if I go to electronic shutter at 1/125 or use higher shutter speeds with the mechanical shutter.  I see it with both the SL and SL2, so not an IBIS problem.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Luke_Miller

[Patrickxyz]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb robb:

I typically use electronic shutter for all outdoor scenes now.  I try to stick to mechanical shutter indoors because I have been affected by banding on the SL2 and color flicker.  Never tried ES on the SL2-s indoors.

Robb

Robb,

can you explain why you use electronic shutter outside, please?

Thanks. Patrick

 

[robb]

I choose to use the e shutter outside to minimize any shutter shock (slight bump) as the shutter moves at certain speeds mentioned previously (like 60th to 125th).  I noticed this softness occurring on my 90 to 280 and my 400mm+ and longer lenses while using the mechanical shutter so I just normally default to e-shutter to avoid any possible softness issues with these lenses and shutter speed windows.  I don’t shoot pro sports any more or fast motion so rolling shutter doesn’t really affect my images.  I’d rather eliminate any chances for lost sharpness.

inside, flicker of different lightbulbs with the slower read times of the e-shutter can cause banding and color shifts thru the frame, so since most of my interior shots rely on the existing “house” mixed lighting, I just use the mechanical shutter there to avoid running into these issues.  You learn thru trial and error and when you discover what best works, you just stick with it…

Robb

[dem331]

I am grateful for the information about shutter slap and use of electronic shutter. I would never have worked it out for myself. I could not imagine that at 90 mm 1/125 with IBIS-OIS I could suffer from this. 

[helged]

2 hours ago, dem331 said:

I am grateful for the information about shutter slap and use of electronic shutter. I would never have worked it out for myself. I could not imagine that at 90 mm 1/125 with IBIS-OIS I could suffer from this. 

I can confirm that for longer focal lengths (in particular), electronic shutter is clearly preferable compared to the mechanical shutter due to the shutter shock of the latter. For fast moving subjects, like birds in flight, wings may get a deformed apparence with electronic shutter (something that I personally dislike). In these cases mechanical shutter is the one to use. That being said, I use electronic shutter 90+ percent of the time when doing outdoor shooting. For indoor shooting, mechanical shutter is often the prefered option. 

[jaapv]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:53 AM, dem331 said:

This is the thread I had in mind, specifically post 4 by @Luke_Miller

I have noticed some of my images with the 24-90 at 90mm were not quite sharp enough, which I attributed to focus error.  However I now suspect it maybe shutter slap. Unfortunately, I have discarded them so I cannot go back and check.
 

My question was, or, rather, was meant to be, since I did not word it well, “shouldn’t the IBIS + OIS compensate for this when shooting 90mm at 1/125?”
 

 

No, because the vibration by shutter slap is in a frequency band that does not activate IBIS or OIS. Sometimes it is only a problem at certain shutter speeds, sometimes at basically all. 

[Patrickxyz]

Robb, thank you.