First impressions comparing M11P and M10R

[charlesphoto99]

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2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Yes, but if there were not those there would be no Leica...it is literally the entire business model. It's not to say that you have to be rich to own or use a Leica, only that they would not be able to sell enough of them new to have a company without rich photographers. Unless of course they completely changed their products...but that is another story.

I meant professional photographers. But we generally only buy what we need and/or can afford, and often make sacrifices in owning other things (like Porsches, etc) in order to buy into something like Leica. I'm sure there are outliers but imo it's the well heeled (insert profession here) that are able to afford the constant churn of new product Leica brings out.  Even Leica have pretty much admitted they are more of a luxury lifestyle company now than a product for actual day to day working photographers, and/or Leicas are secondary to their main gear. Of course that's in large part Leica's fault when one might have to wait five months to get a repair done on a brand new camera or lens. 

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, Bernard M said:

My daughter is a dentist, and she is not rich… Seems she is on the wrong side of the Atlantic. Perhaps she should go to the USA, where, apparently, all dentists are so rich that it became proverbial 😉.

It is not a general phenomenon. It is just the typical trolls trying to say that people who have other professional jobs that earn more than journalism or art can't also use their time to buy a nice camera and take pictures. I think they chose dentists because they assume that somehow they would not be good photographers? Who knows? It goes back decades here though...probably when being a dentist or doctor earned more in relation to the general public than they do now. I think a more modern troll would choose a tech bro or ceo as a more contemporary target.

[weatherproof]

5 hours ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

I owned up to that gaffe a few posts up from here, in a post that begins with the word "Whoops".

[...]

And, I salute Leica for the subsequent implementation in which light is reflected off the shutter blades, such as in our digital M bodies. As I said in the post above, it's kind of like having a little gray card with you all the time. 

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I'm not a Leica expert and thought I missed something because I couldn't follow the thread that well.

[jaapv]

Still, it doesn’t sit well with the average dentist who is in general non-rich. There are plenty of monikers from 40 years ago that don’t go down well nowadays. 

[DadDadDaddyo]

... and thank goodness for that!

Such monikers are just another way to display or profess indifference to important variations within a assumed-to-be-homoginous sample group. 

It's a trait you want your own political consultants to root out, and those of your opponent to continue to indulge in....

Just wait & see.....

[Bernard M]

55 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Still, it doesn’t sit well with the average dentist who is in general non-rich. There are plenty of monikers from 40 years ago that don’t go down well nowadays. 

And that’s why my far-less-than-forty-years-old-dentist-daughter has a Canon EOS XXX with a consumer zoom, and has zero interest in Leica M or Q with APO FLE something… 😇.

[Derbyshire Man]

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2 hours ago, Bernard M said:

And that’s why my far-less-than-forty-years-old-dentist-daughter has a Canon EOS XXX with a consumer zoom, and has zero interest in Leica M or Q with APO FLE something… 😇.

So far!

[jaapv]

Medical practitioners have a normed income over here, based on the average time for each treatment, which is priced accordingly. Prices are fixed by the health authority. The average dental income norm works out to  7400 Euro a month before taxes with an interval between 3200 to 11500.  Try and get rich on that.

It is illegal to charge more than the fixed maximum rate. 

[Bernard M]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Medical practitioners have a normed income over here, based on the average time for each treatment, which is priced accordingly. Prices are fixed by the health authority. The average dental income norm works out to  7400 Euro a month before taxes with an interval between 3200 to 11500.  Try and get rich on that.

It is illegal to charge more than the fixed maximum rate. 

Income per month is not a fair information, especially when it’s used as a basis for comparison. Income per year is better, as medical practitioners (and others too) are not paid when they have holidays. As a consequence, a 7400€ per month is an income of 81400€ a year of 11 months, which, in turn, is equivalent to 6260€ a month for a normal worker paid over 12 months plus a bonus of approx. one month. Everybody will think that 7400 is better than 6260, but in fact it is the same.

But we are very far from M10 and M11, sorry…

[jaapv]

Yes, let's head back to cameras...  One last thing, this is an official norm income which takes things like holidays and 13th month etc. into account.

Back to Leica...

[jaapv]

13 hours ago, weatherproof said:

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I'm not a Leica expert and thought I missed something because I couldn't follow the thread that well.

This measuring off the shutter blades is a historical necessity. Because of the technological restrictions on the M5 and CL,  the M6 replaced the TTL measuring system  (swinging arm with sensor) with measuring off the film during exposure with a pre-measurement off a white spot on the shutter curtain. Revolutionary at the time. With the M8 that was not possible any more as the sensor reflected totally different from film, so they reduced it to measuring off the shutter blades.

[jakontil]

On 1/7/2024 at 9:49 PM, Al Brown said:

I shoot a LOT with my fancy, pretty M10-R BP camera. Clocked almost 60K actuations with it in 2 years. All my clients pay me. I agree production value is important, I too have been showing up on sets with a big rig and huge d̶i̶c̶k̶ lens in my hand and adding some strobes and lights with just modelling lights switched on to impress the client, but I have YET TO SEE A CLIENT who would say how many megapixels my camera should have. Never ever (I am a pro since 1998, shooting digital since 2003). All clients say just use your "best" or "max" settings. That's it.
I agree the M11-P is the best Leica in the known universe and Beverly Hills. No plans for it though, got the X2D instead.

same route, that's a beast, ur clients ask how many pixels it got?

[tom0511]

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Edited January 8, 2024 by tom0511

[tappan]

On 12/27/2023 at 1:16 PM, bilbrown said:

I traded my M10-R for the M11P, I kept my M10M "Leitz Wetzlar" and I've owned (and sold) many M bodies. What I am going to tell you in this post is why I think the M11-P is maybe the best not only M but best CAMERA that Leica has made to date (for me anyway).

My first M was the M4-2, which was light and cool but really had nothing. No light meter, nothing. Since I stupidly burnt the shutter, I moved to the M7. Film is a lot to think about for me, nerves or whatever, so the M7 continues to be part of my workflow. I later added an M2, M1 (when I was forcing myself to only zone focus), and finally for film the M-A. To me the M-A is the perfect M film camera because it has the build that will last a lifetime, I am the only owner, and the finish is exactly what I prefer (I am not a BP guy).

As for digital. This is a more complicated story, as I make my full living on the images I make and take. Full disclosure, I am also an S shooter since the S006 and do fashion and editorial portraiture as well as documentary work on the streets and inside at night. The S I ended up with is the S typ 007, and have used the S3 but saw no real advantage with the S3 over resolution and 4K video (which I don't use on an S), it gave me NOTHING in DR. Maybe the next iteration of the S will be mirrorless and we will see if that makes me switch out my 007 that has been recently CLA'd and actually REBUILT from the motherboard up so it will likely last me another 7-10 years without having to service. What I like about the S (this is important for later) was two fold: the rendering of the S lenses off the large sensor and the dynamic range. I used to tell people it was the best camera for image making Leica had thus produced. I meant it.

I had and have a slew of other Leica bodies concurrent with the S. The M9M was light and sleek but just not right somehow, and I didn't like the Tri-X style rendering, how slow the 2009 M9 variant was and how loud. The images were highly contagious and satisfying for other people, but just not for me. I never liked the colors of the M9, I preferred the M8 skin tones and colors but didn't like the IR issue. The M8 actually beat a Phase One I was shooting for a job on images which I found extremely amusing! Maybe this was because, of (shocker) the lens I used! I never liked Kodachrome, so the M9 colors were not for me. I was an AGFA guy or other slide film and I just never got along with the Kodak CCD sensors, and the early tech of the M8/M9 bodies was just atrocious when stupid Canon was making cameras that flew! What I did appreciate is what has carried on to this day in the M series: an M, functionally, is an M is an M.

The M240 and M246 were my workhorses from 2015-2018, I added the M10 first batch 2017 day it came out and slowly integrated it into my workflow. I tried a used M10-P, and the rangefinder snapped in one day of use, so sent back. I tried the M10-D but was not sold, because the FOTOS connectivity was horrible for a camera that didn't have a back-up screen! I think both of those cameras are great, I either had bad luck or there is something that made me just not try again.

Because of certain shots, portraits and other in 2015 I added a SL typ 601, and M and R adapters. The SL got me on the radar at Wetzlar, and I was in S magazine, LFI and others because of it. I think I shot the SL like a M or R in many ways. In fact my R8 stays pretty much idle as long as I have an SL body, and I just switch out the lenses.

But the love affair with the SL stopped with the SL2. The SL2 is a camera I am only now starting to appreciate more. When it came out I held onto my SL typ 601 for as long as I could. I did not like the contrast, I did not like the *look* of the higher resolution rendering (may be important later, because it grew on me) and although it had more DR than my SL, M240 and was close to my M246 monochrom (but in color) the color shift that happened in low light wasn't worth it for me. People LOVE the Q2, same sensor as the SL2, but I think Leica somehow had more control with the 28 Summilux-Q attached. Yes, you can and I do, change all this in post – but a yellow should not render orange and a red should be a red not magenta. IFYKYK what I'm talking about. It's just bizarre!

Then around the pandemic things got interesting. The SL2-S, wow. I was SOLD on the BSI sensor! And I added the Q2M (had a Q, but I rarely used it, but looking back Ive used it enough to where some of my favorite shots came in the form of the Q in black & white). Okay okay, I see where this is going, higher DR, and sensors that resolve and are croppable, or just simply have more information embeded in them – the Q2M made me pick up a SL2-S, simply for the sensors resolvability and my SL typ 601 was showing its age. Were the digital cameras getting closer to the visual media colors you see on streaming, but also printable. Then I sold my M10 (and 50 APO) and got the M10-R, replaced my M246 with the M10-M when the "Leitz Wetzlar" edition came out because I had sold my M246 for a Mamiya 7ii (which I later sold because the leaf shutter was too quiet! But this pushes the idea that at 6x7 the resolution matters!) and the "Leitz Wetzlar" edition added to my own sense of Leica history included Leitz and what that means. I could not see needing anymore than ISO 100,000 EVER, so getting a special edition Monochrom made sense, to me anyway. The M10-R was interesting though, I often put it up against my S007 and swear the rendering and DR are very similar. So it hit me: What if I had and M that could do what the S did for me? 

Now, I could have stopped at the M10-R (and the SL2-S). I really could have kept those cameras until I passed them on to my kids. Because of some body armor bubbling, my S007 was in Wetzlar for MONTHS being rebuilt because of a snafu in shipping I had a loaner S3. Remember, I said the S3 didn't do anything more for me that the S007 did – EXCEPT resolution. 

Now we come to the M11. I was introduced to it early (in beta), before it was announced, by a guy that no longer works for Leica. It seemed complicated. I wasn't sold on the bottom plate being gone, but I loved that it would go for DAYS like my M240/M246. I didn't think the tri-resolution sensor would be useful, but I was intrigued by the fact it was BSI like the SL2-S that had replaced my SL. I decided like many of us to wait for the M11-P. 

Personally and professionally, I used to be a monochrome guy all the way, in fact most of my most recognizable images are in black and white with flash, but something about the M10-R as an everyday carry really made me push color and lenses without artificial light. The M11, I kept telling myself, "who needs 60MP? 40MP is fine for everything I do!" The producers I deal with kept saying, "Let's get you a loaner or rental for when you shoot campaigns." Why? Has the market changed that much? Okay, they said, "Just shoot film then." and I did maybe one or two rolls and then used digital and no one knew the difference. The reality is: NO megapixels do not matter, to us. But to those that think they do, they matter. Some of these people actually PAY YOU. I can tell you, coming on set with a SL/SL2/SL2-S and an S inspired confidence, because they still want a big body so they can see what they are paying for and aren't just depending on you with something they think is the equivalent of a P&S. But often the M10-R files were the ones chosen or the S. But also, and this kind of shocked me, the SL2-S in good light. above ISO 6400 the color shift is very difficult to tone down to something usable for me. I like to be my own DIT/retoucher so this made me really push for the S and M10-R files, but the dynamic range in color just wasn't there for the M10-R outside of using denoising software. I didn't own a M11 yet, but at gallery shows and more I kept seeing color rendering in low light that reminded me of the S3. For lack of a technical description, the colors seemed more accurate or more "live" which is easier to use tone curves to get what you want in post (or just keep it right out of camera). I needed the DR of the SL2-S with better color at high ISO and above 40MP.

The M11-P could not have come at a better time! Yes the Q3, but part of the glory of the M is the fact you can change the lenses (we all know this is the magic, not some digital or film body, the lenses). As good as that 28 Q Summilux is having CHOICE of focal lengths and between vintage and super modern lenses is why to choose and M.

If you look through this post, my needs were 1) resolution, 2) dynamic range, 3) color accuracy, 4) reasonable low light, and the perks of battery life, croppable areas, and light-to-carry as my first film M in my hand. What I got with the M11-P was all of these! Some things I lost however, I had to be okay with them.

Before the current FW 2.0.2, I had to in a way relearn shooting on a digital M with the M11-P. The metering is still not ideal, but highlight weighted is better but makes you have to think differently. On the first few days FOTOS was talking to my camera (Geotagging) and slowing me down, some of my adapters made the shutter act funny, my card wasn't fast enough (same card I used in my M10-R), I had to pop the battery a few times and I couldn't MASH the shutter at 60MP or it would either fill the buffer or I needed to switch to continuous shooting mode. After the FW 2.0.2 came out all of these issues were resolved. I think the differences in the way the shutter reacts (open all the time etc) may be something Leica has to work on. It hit me these are the reasons for the tri-resolution, for the things I would need to mash-that-shutter or shoot fast 18MP was fine. For most other things 36MP was more than fine. 60MP is a luxury and I am glad I have it! I never used the EVF on my M240 or M10 variants, now I think I might need to get one. I haven't used the ES too much, because I like to feel when I shoot. The shutter sound is better on the M10-P/M10-R/M10M, but the M11-P sound isn't a deal breaker.

Needless to say, in a way it was a blessing I had to relearn the M! After a decade plus of shooting digital (and film) M, there were things the M11-P could do that were closer what I expected from my other cameras! Things I would have NEVER shot with an M. Proof is in the final image. It's modern, it fits with current needs of digital rendering, and it can pull from the lens catalog like the other Ms so I still get what I need visually. Is it a perfect camera? Not yet, still waiting on a few FW updates for that but I think being only at ver 2 of the FW we have some things look forward to! It feels like it really builds on the legacy of the Kaufman era of Leica. In working with the files, it reminds me of the S3, with the DR of the S007. The images are GORGEOUS and workable, they are LIVE like the SL2-S and (BONUS) far as I can tell ZERO color shift at high ISO!

Yes, there are things I miss about the M10-R. The M10-R was a pinnacle refinement of the M10 series, no doubt. Stealthy and elegant! However, I am not sure it was a very modern digital camera for its time (not saying the M11 is completely, but it's getting there!). Not having to think about bringing two or more bodies on a stills shoot or having a lot of the things I expect in a camera in the mid-2020s being right there at my fingertips has been a game changer.

Now, about the CAI tech: Do we need it? Yes, I think we do. This future proofs the M line of cameras. AI is NO JOKE. If you are a professional in pictorial, commercial or news you will want to have SOMETHING that says I TOOK THE PHOTO. Not saying it has to be the CAI tech, but with all of the companies other than Leica behind it, it likely wouldn't hurt. I can truthfully say, although I am not afraid of AI. I am absolutely thrilled I have a even small chance of having my images attached to my legacy and something actionable if someone or something tries to pass them off as something more nefarious!

 

To close this long ass post up, IMHO, this is likely the best digital M yet made for a professional shooter or someone that makes a living off the still images they make, which I am. I mean, this of course supposes a professional shooter even wants to get an M. It's not like we NEED one, it's a choice. An expensive one! If you prefer to shoot with an M and you are a pro, this might be the camera for you! I know this isn't going to be everyone's needs, or wants. Hell, I was fine with needing only the basics myself. But in using it since about a week after launch, it's become my go-to digital camera! ON the streets, IN the studio, ON location, candid and pictorial, landscapes and portraits.

I'm sold.

 

**edit: Now lets see what the SL3 and S4 (mirrorless?) will be!

Thank you for your thorough post, here. One thing that I have not been able to find on this thread. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Is there still a shutter buffer situation that fills quickly and "stutters" the shutter to about 10 shots and then delays, or is it much better with the M11?
Thx,
Mark

[Herr Barnack]

On 11/28/2023 at 2:06 PM, setuporg said:

So as some folks here know, I’ve not been swept off my feet by the M11 when it launched.  I’ve waited until the P.  Added an X2D in the interim.  For whatever reason, the winds of change blew in, and M11P felt like the right addition, especially with an M 35 APO I was able to get on the same day.  The geotagging and content credentials seem fun, geotagging really useful as it just works.

The M10R and M10M pair I have seem to become the last classics.  I wish I had a BP version but it does not justify the price anymore, and the M10R took so many great pictures.  My approach to selling is simple, don’t, unless you absolutely have to:). I’ll keep the M10R as both its own “film” and a companion to the M10M.  Eg if I am to take both a color and a monochrom cameras I’d take that combo on a trip to share batteries and chargers.

But realistically M11P is the color Leica of choice now.  What I do often is to take another one, like M9P or Edition 60, and carry them for a week or so.  Every single camera gets substantial air time.  You have to walk them like dogs.

Having an M10M, I'm halfway there.  Hoping to add an M10R at some point. 

I'm not sure if they are the last classics or the last functional digital M cameras. 

Maybe both.

 

Edited May 10, 2024 by Herr Barnack

[LeicaR10]

Herr Barnack,  IMO...the M10-R and M10-M ARE the last of the classic digital Ms.  Unless Leica decides to do an about face like they did with the M246 to M10s...I think the seniors are listening to the marketing department for an Apple M camera and certainly not the traditional M users.  I think returning to Herr Barnack's original and timeless vision for a M camera, might well be destined for as the Aborigines say here in Australia...off to the "Never, never".   All we can do is wait watch the M12 space....   r/ Mark

PS...I know you will find an excellent, previously owned M10-R.  

[SrMi]

For me, a classic M is the M6, I never considered a digital M a classic. I still own  M10R, but will use it only occasionally like I use the M8, M9, and M240, all gorgeous cameras producing gorgeous results. The M8, my first M, will always have a special place in my heart. But my main digital M, and that I use the most, will always be the latest M model, today that is M11.

[HNK]

Not really adding to the original topic, but I'm just waiting for the M12 to get released which will, hopefully, nudge down the prices of used M10-Rs : )

[setuporg]

It’s interesting to reread this as I just got the M11-D a week ago, a bit under a year since the M11-P, both at launch.  Now with the M11-P experience the M11-D seems an easy choice.  M10-R, although dreamy and with a better Leica look, has not seen much use.  I hope to still change that and do more pair shoots.  It still does not feel right to sell the M10R+M combo.  It’s destined to be the last classic.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[mujk]

If I have understood it correctly the exposure metering systems on M Leicas can be summarized as:

M5 and CL have a measurement cell on a swinging arm that meters the light falling on the cell through the lens. This is for available light only, not flash.

M6 and MP have a fixed measurement cell that, prior to exposure, meters available light falling through the lens and is reflected off the white spot of the shutter curtain. They don't have TTL flash metering.

M6TTL and M7 have a similar available light metering system to the M6 and MP. In addition, they have a separate measurement cell for TTL flash, metering flash light reflected off the film.

M8 and M9  (and M26x) have a similar available light metering system to M6TTL and M7, but the white spot on the shutter has been replaced by the middle shutter blades painted grey and white. They also have TTL flash measurement cells that meters flash light reflected off the shutter, not off the film.

M24x and M10 have a similar metering system to the M8 and M9. In addition, they can also meter available light using the image sensor (shutter open). Also TTL flash metering is similar to M8 and M9.

M11 does not meter off the shutter, only using the image sensor (shutter open). This applies both to available light and TTL flash metering.

Please correct me if I got it wrong.