Help with faded-looking film

[edelweiss]

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Hi all!

I've just started shooting and developing my own black and white film (on a Leica IIIf).  I need some help with my most recent roll that I tried to develop.

I got this "faded" look (attached screenshots).  Any ideas on what went wrong?  Only thing I can think of is that the chemicals I used (developer and fixer) were each used only once before.  I was also very slightly less careful about the temperature of the chemicals, because I didn't have a way of heating up my saved chemicals, and the temperature of the chemicals was maybe 17-19 C. 

My scanning process is very sub-standard since I haven't invested much into this process yet.  I'm using an old scanner with max 600 dpi, and I haven't yet solved the newton ring problem yet.  I intend to improve on this once I figure out my chemical process.

The film I am using is Kodak T-Max 400, and I used Ilfosol 3 developer (1+9 ratio) and Simplicity Rapid Fixer (1+5 ratio). 

I used the following development times:

* 7:30 development

* 1:00 stop bath (just used tap water)

* 5:00 fixing

* Fill and empty tank with water 5 times to wash off fixer

* 0:30 of wetting solution

Any help appreciated.

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[dpitt]

It has been a long time since I developed myself. This looks like under developed to me. Others who have experience with Ilfosol 3 can confirm....

Temperature is critical to have consistent results. I made sure it was in control up to one ºC. Only then the times on the developer sheet will make any sense. And even then you will have to tweak them to get the best results.

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[Tom R]

From your attached images it's difficult to accurately assess what's afoot here. If you could post photographs of the negatives, against a white background (or a light table) we might be able to determine more about these results. 

I have never used this particular developer, but I shoot a good amount of TMY (in the 35mm format). I usually process this film in Clayton's F76+, 1 + 9, for 7:00 (this is assuming 24 degrees C), following Kodak's agitation recommendations (but with a "light" touch).

I might alter your processing method slightly: after the 5:00 fix, use a hypo clearing agent (you can make your own using Sodium Sulfite or buy any commercially prepared product). After pouring off the fixer, pour in the hypo clearing agent, agitate for at least one minute, then allow another minute where the film soaks. This step will remove most, if not all, of the pink, anti-halation dye that Kodak uses in its T-Grain films. And, it will ensure a more complete "wash." On that note, I use the Ilford wash method, which requires the following steps:

1. (After pouring off the hypo clearing agent) Fill the tank with fresh water, invert the tank five times, and pour off the water;
2. Fill the tank with fresh water, invert ten times; pour off the water; finally,
3. Fill the tank with fresh water, invert twenty times; pour off the water.

If it hasn't been said, the temperatures of ALL of the solutions (including final rinse and, if appropriate, drying agents) should be maintained with 1 degree C to avoid a host of problems. 

[pippy]

I agree with both the above comments regarding the importance of chemicals' temperature.

Whether or not that was the reason for your issue is imossible to determine from the info you have provided but it's certainly a strong contender.

Philip.

[BernardC]

14 hours ago, edelweiss said:

Only thing I can think of is that the chemicals I used (developer and fixer) were each used only once before.  I was also very slightly less careful about the temperature of the chemicals, because I didn't have a way of heating up my saved chemicals, and the temperature of the chemicals was maybe 17-19 C. 

There's your problem. Your developer was weak and your temperature was too low.

You can re-use fixer, but don't re-use developer unless you have enough volume and experience to justify it. Otherwise it's a false economy: you'll ruin rolls of expensive film trying to save on processing costs. Besides, Ilford says that Ilfosol is a one-shot developer, so it isn't suited to re-use at all.

 

Note: temperature control is critical for developer, but not for fixer and wash, as long as you don't change the temperature too quickly. You can develop at 20c and fix/wash at 17c. I wouldn't change the temperature by 10c between steps, but 3c is fine with modern films.

14 hours ago, edelweiss said:

* Fill and empty tank with water 5 times to wash off fixer

Washing work by dilution over time. The fill and empty method works very well, but you should use longer times with each fill/dump cycle. I double the time each cycle: 30 seconds for the first fill, 1 minute for the second, 2 minutes, 4 minutes, 8 minutes. I usually add a sixth fill for 16-20 minutes just to be safe. You can use hypo-clearing agent, as others have suggested, but it isn't as beneficial for film or RC paper because the fixer doesn't seep into the base as it would with fibre paper.

[pippy]

23 minutes ago, BernardC said:

...Note: temperature control is critical for developer, but not for fixer and wash, as long as you don't change the temperature too quickly. You can develop at 20c and fix/wash at 17c. I wouldn't change the temperature by 10c between steps, but 3c is fine with modern films...

The biggest issue with using chemicals at different temperatures - as I'm sure you know, Bernard - is reticulation. Having suffered from this phenomenon once I vowed never to make the same mistake again and therefore always ensured my mixtures within a degree or two just in case.

I'm not sure how much of a temperature difference there needs to be before the problem manifests itself but my view was always that it was better to be safe than sorry!

Philip.

[BernardC]

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1 hour ago, pippy said:

I'm not sure how much of a temperature difference there needs to be before the problem manifests itself but my view was always that it was better to be safe than sorry!

Modern films like TMax should be OK within 5 degrees c. Older films (and perhaps some re-issues) were more prone to reticulation.

[wizard]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb edelweiss:

Any ideas on what went wrong? 

 

vor 4 Stunden schrieb dpitt:

This looks like under developed to me.

+1, that was my gut reaction, too.

[250swb]

There are rules about developing for a reason, and if it says develop at a particular temperature for a particular time then do it. If it says it's a one shot developer throw it down the sink after using it because you've seen the false economy of using it again, a ruined film. Go by the book and don't be tempted into doing what somebody else said they can get away with.

[Pyrogallol]

Using this Ilford time and temperature chart 7.5 minutes at 20c should be 9 minutes at 17c.

really need to see a picture of the strip of negatives to get a better idea and to see if the problem is not under fixing.

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Edited November 28, 2023 by Pyrogallol

[pippy]

20 hours ago, edelweiss said:

...I haven't yet solved the newton ring problem yet...

Just going back to this for a bit.

In my wet-room printing days the only foolproof way I ever discovered which circumvented the Newton's Ring issue was to use glassless carriers. Doesn't matter if it's the carrier in an enlarger or that of a scanner. If the negative strip is in physical contact with glass then (AFAIK) NR can rear its ugly head.

Philip.

[250swb]

There are companies who sell ANR glass, in the UK Knight Optical (I think they are in Kent) can sell you a standard size or do custom sizes. I use their glass for digitally scanning negatives with a camera.

[Yachtbuoy]

I can't remember for TMY but I know that for TMX and Ilfosol 3 I have to shoot the film at 80 ISO - you lose a bit of speed with Ilfosol 3 and that film. My advice is to use a film stock and dev which is a bit more "bulletproof" - I've found Rodinal/Parodinal to be pretty forgiving.

[edelweiss]

Everyone, thank you, this has been tremendously helpful and I love the insight you're all providing.  I think the impression of re-using developer was from a youtube video suggesting I pour my developer out in a chemical bottle for next time.  But in any case, I should have just read the Ilfosol 3 spec sheet

8 hours ago, pippy said:

If the negative strip is in physical contact with glass then (AFAIK) NR can rear its ugly head.

Yes, that's what has been happening exactly.  I'm looking into the Epson v600 scanner, which I believe comes with frames that holds the film by the edges off the glass.  But I've not yet settled on whether I'll be using flatbed scanner or a digital camera with macro lens.  

 

[TomB_tx]

I recall decades ago lab suppliers sold film intensifiers to try and salvage thin negatives, but they used chemicals containing things like Selenium, Mercury and Uranium... and Unobtainium.

Edited November 29, 2023 by TomB_tx

[chris_livsey]

Just to confirm some of the comments if I may: this is underdeveloped due to re-use of Ilfosol which, when diluted, has an effective life of only a few hours, you say once before but not how long, if within an hour or two you would get away with it allowing around 10% ish time increase but longer this is what you got, actually if it was a week say I would surprised you got anything.

On reticulation you can get away with less tight control in B/W than 1 or 2 degrees C, depends on the film, they vary as someone above said, maximum limit is around 10C according to someone who worked in research at Kodak, which is huge, if you doubt this try and make reticulation happen, I have, it's really difficult, no doubt if not trying it would happen though at a much lower difference.

Absolute temperature is like time, not important within limits, what is important is repetition of the time for consistent results. ie do you start the development time when you start adding developer to the tank or when it has all gone in or are you dunking in a big full tank in the dark, with a five reel tank that makes quite a difference. Whatever YOU decide do it each time and you will arrive at consistent results, when you have dialled it in. Same on temp if you can get 18 or 19 consistently use that, not try to warm to 20, just adjust the time to work and stick to that.

We all develop 😊 our own way of working which is of course the only true way and that which everyone else should use so take any advice, obviously not mine 😁, with a dose of salt, find your own way that works for you and your way of working your water your film etc so many variables, keep them under control, if you vary take due note of the outcome so you can repeat it if it works, for you.

What "works" also depends back in the camera on your way of exposing, do you like to give a bit more or a bit less or are you slave to a meter, which may be "off" anyway, judge your negatives for what you want to do, if just scanning, which is a very different process than wet printing, scanner exposure is determined by pre scanning the thinnest parts of the negative as bright as possible to collect the most tonal values possible hence some overexposure is desirable, but not gross obviously, the best scanning negatives would not be ideal to wet print. 

Enjoy the rabbit hole of developing, it has a long, very, and honourable history not like this "Johnny come lately" digital fad  🤣

[edelweiss]

The developer was stored away for about 4-5 days.  Something did seem off when I pulled it out and noticed the color was a weird brown.  I went ahead anyways thinking I'd follow the instructions I had at the time and then refine from there. 

Totally with you there about everyone having their own process, and I'm just starting to refine a standard for myself here that actually gives me usable photos.  I've been shooting digitally most of my adult life, and it recently dawned on me that I was shooting faster than I could think and getting uninteresting photos as a result.  I'm trying to do more film photography to help me slow down, refine my composition, and think more about the shots I take.  So far I think it's helping, I think I've improved in the digital realm of photography as well.

I don't think film will ever go away (nor should it!)  But whether digital is a fad, well that would be an interesting discussion.  😆

Edited November 29, 2023 by edelweiss

[chris_livsey]

1 hour ago, edelweiss said:

The developer was stored away for about 4-5 days.  Something did seem off when I pulled it out and noticed the color was a weird brown.

I don't think film will ever go away (nor should it!)  But whether digital is a fad, well that would be an interesting discussion.  😆

There is the answer, the worst I had was strange old developer called Harveys 777, google it it has history, you can and should re-use it, advice used to be to sacrifice some rolls before using it on what mattered, and it improves with that, a number of tank developers particularly do it. a build up of bromide and other reactant by products are "good" anyway I was doing well with it then out of the blue I developed a 5 roll tank and nothing! No edge markings nothing just died completely, it was weird stuff. 

No, my parting shot was tongue in cheek, but digital cameras may. I read the latest phone takes 12 images using different filters and focus instantly as you press the "shutter" then AI processes them and produces a single image you see, perfected (in AI opinion) immediately and you never know what went on.

I was going to add that, although not familiar with that particular fixer, don't be afraid to reuse that component. It will not oxidise as developer does but your T-Max does need longer than "conventional" grain films. You can always use the film leader you snip off, dip it in the fixer and see how long it takes to clear the film, when it gets takes so long you get bored agitating a roll use a fresh batch, but honestly price of film the chemical cost becomes irrelevant really.

[250swb]

12 hours ago, edelweiss said:

 

Totally with you there about everyone having their own process, and I'm just starting to refine a standard for myself here that actually gives me usable photos. 

Be careful about having your own process, developing film is like learning to play the guitar, it's best if you don't 'develop' bad habits to start with. If you have no datum point you have no process because if something doesn't work you've got no base to go back to and work out what went wrong. I have taught photography and a teacher would never introduce variables until the pupil has got plenty of experience. If you don't consistently know how film develops at a recommended 20c for x amount of time you'll be clueless if 18c for a minute longer looks better or worse.

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[hansvons]

On 11/29/2023 at 4:04 AM, edelweiss said:

I think the impression of re-using developer was from a youtube video suggesting I pour my developer out in a chemical bottle for next time.  But in any case, I should have just read the Ilfosol 3 spec sheet

Precisely this. Always follow the manufacturer's recipe. 

Shooting film and developing film is all about baselines. You need a recipe to start with, ideally from the manufacturer. That includes ISO meter settings for the correct exposure, developer, fixer, and washing times. That's your baseline. Results should be as expected.

At some point, you might figure out what you can change to reach your specific targets, but rest assured, most pros don't do that but follow the standard recipe forever. Getting the exposure right and, more importantly, the subject, story, you name it, is vastly more important to the final result than funky/arty development.

Recipe means following painstakingly the lab hygiene. Being anal about times and temperature is super-important. There is wiggle room, but you need to be experienced where you can be sloppy. 

For C41, I strictly follow times and temperature in seconds and half centigrades. I only use the developer for up to 75% of its advertised lifetime. I don't want my shots to be compromised only because I feel like saving some money.

For B&W, I defaulted to Xtol; others use Rodinal, D-76 or one of the Ilford offerings. I use Xtol 1:1 diluted, which balances the development nicely, reaches full ISO, and is cost-effective. To compensate for the longer dev time because I use the developer diluted, I develop at 24 C*. This still follows the manufacturer's recipe, as 24 C* is an option in their recipes. I get the dev times from the respective film's product sheet, and that's it. 

Lastly, I use the Ilford washing method. It works for me and saves time and water.