All is quiet in the M10 forum

[setuporg]

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No freezing, charging problems.  Just photos…

[maxpower]

this recently had some new activity

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[tritentrue]

1 hour ago, setuporg said:

No freezing, charging problems.  Just photos…

 

 . . . thanks to the M11 forum section.  

A few months ago I was about to pull the trigger on an M11, but the ongoing complaints I read about here steered me to an M10-P instead.  Sure, I'd love to have the variable MP option, USB-C charging, a longer-life battery, better resolution in my Visoflex 2, etc.; but not with the risk of having to deal with any of the issues I've read about.

In addition to being grateful for users' willingness to share in detail their M11 experiences, I really empathize.  Loyal Leica users, especially those who dutifully follow the upgrade path, deserve better.  The litany of excuses in defense of Leica, to me, just doesn't cut it.

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, tritentrue said:

 

 . . . thanks to the M11 forum section.  

A few months ago I was about to pull the trigger on an M11, but the ongoing complaints I read about here steered me to an M10-P instead.  Sure, I'd love to have the variable MP option, USB-C charging, a longer-life battery, better resolution in my Visoflex 2, etc.; but not with the risk of having to deal with any of the issues I've read about.

In addition to being grateful for users' willingness to share in detail their M11 experiences, I really empathize.  Loyal Leica users, especially those who dutifully follow the upgrade path, deserve better.  The litany of excuses in defense of Leica, to me, just doesn't cut it.

There are many people complaining about it and were never users.

The reality is it never has been that bad on the M11. I enjoy my M11 every day and am so grateful to have it over the M10-p and M10-R that I sold.

The dynamic range alone makes all the difference. Don't you hate the limitation of the M10 burned highlights?

[la1402]

Happy M11 user here. No freezes, loving all the improvements and a sensor that is finally very good. I am not missing my M10P at all.

[newtoleica]

23 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Don't you hate the limitation of the M10 burned highlights?

No,

I just expose properly allowing for that and the metering system that needs a bit of thought about what it is metering. Just meter off an area that suits or use the compensation dial.

[SJH]

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On 11/5/2023 at 10:15 AM, Photoworks said:

There are many people complaining about it and were never users.

The reality is it never has been that bad on the M11. I enjoy my M11 every day and am so grateful to have it over the M10-p and M10-R that I sold.

The dynamic range alone makes all the difference. Don't you hate the limitation of the M10 burned highlights?

I agree my M10M and M10R had a few freezes but my Silver M11, that I acquired on launch day, hasn't had one, I also bought a black M11P on launch day and again no freezes so far. It really is the issue with the internet, take a look at the M11 Freezes thread - you'll find constant 'repeats' of the same incident months ago, 'others talking about others' alleged freezing. The actual number of freeze issues reported at the time of the freeze (and then not mentioned again and again) appears to be a small minority of actual M11 customers. The frenzy around this appears to have got out of control and as a result we've probably created some self harm to the M11's initial prospects.

Equally there are some people of course that had a bad experience (just like the Fuji XT5 launch, the Z8, the R5 etc etc) and Leica acknowledge this but the amount of trolling and 'fake news' that's appeared has to be taken onto account. I'm not sure how the Mods deal with this but it might be wise next time (or now) to have a rule that states for matters like freezing there is a thread where you can report a freeze and comment on it only at the time it happens and then another thread for 'discussing freezing issues', that way both we and Leica get a sense of perspective. With everyone's permission such a thread could also mandate that members enter the serial number of their camera so that this also helps Leica to discover any patterns/batches etc. The start of any such thread would also show customers how to log issues with Leica as well.

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, newtoleica said:

No,

I just expose properly allowing for that and the metering system that needs a bit of thought about what it is metering. Just meter off an area that suits or use the compensation dial.

Or just just get an M11, expose with highlight metering, and stop underexposing 2-3 because the DR is not there.

I like to shoot like any other camera and don't have to rely on bringing up the image from the dead, black!

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, SJH said:

I agree my M10M and M10R had a few freezes but my Silver M11, that I acquired on launch day, hasn't had one, I also bought a black M11P on launch day and again no freezes so far. It really is the issue with the internet, take a look at the M11 Freezes thread - you'll find constant 'repeats' of the same incident months ago, 'others talking about others' alleged freezing. The actual number of freeze issues reported at the time of the freeze (and then not mentioned again and again) appears to be a small minority of actual M11 customers. The frenzy around this appears to have got out of control and as a result we've probably created some self harm to the M11's initial prospects.

Equally there are some people of course that had a bad experience (just like the Fuji XT5 launch, the Z8, the R5 etc etc) and Leica acknowledge this but the amount of trolling and 'fake news' that's appeared has to be taken onto account. I'm not sure how the Mods deal with this but it might be wise next time (or now) to have a rule that states for matters like freezing there is a thread where you can report a freeze and comment on it only at the time it happens and then another thread for 'discussing freezing issues', that way both we and Leica get a sense of perspective. With everyone's permission such a thread could also mandate that members enter the serial number of their camera so that this also helps Leica to discover any patterns/batches etc. The start of any such thread would also show customers how to log issues with Leica as well.

Good idea,

I have to blame a little Leica for it, they stick with the predefined update schedule when they could have toned down the issue with an update sooner.

[newtoleica]

7 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

Or just just get an M11, expose with highlight metering, and stop underexposing 2-3 because the DR is not there.

I like to shoot like any other camera and don't have to rely on bringing up the image from the dead, black!

I'm not a huge fan of the new shutter sound and I don't want to spend an extra £4000 on a new body as I can think of far better things to do with it, like going to Japan with the family for the Easter break....

[Photoworks]

5 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

I'm not a huge fan of the new shutter sound and I don't want to spend an extra £4000 on a new body as I can think of far better things to do with it, like going to Japan with the family for the Easter break....

nothing wrong with that, i took great memories on the M10-p, Japan is a great destination

[setuporg]

9 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

nothing wrong with that, i took great memories on the M10-p, Japan is a great destination

Should be great fun to browse and get some Leica in the amazing shops there:)

[Le Chef]

False logic: assuming that the number of complaints is significant when it might not be significant at all. It’s a common fact that you will always get noisy complainers who will repeat post to amplify their complaint, while contented owners will mostly say nothing. In other words you are getting a false negative.

You need to know the growth in the number of posters in this forum (and even that’s a subset of all owners) and then map complaints against that over time. And repeat the exercise for the M10 and M10-R so you have a comparison.

You might then be able to see something more closely resembling reality.

[setuporg]

Actually this dismissal of complaints is wrong.  Once I got my first freeze it was terrifying.  Every second shot was a freeze and the card was corrupted (required PhotoRec recovery and still a few shots were lost.)

It’s clear to me that those who have no freezes simply haven’t exercise FOTOS in various scenarios where it’s supposed to work.

Any single instance of a major fault, repeated by even one more person, following a pattern, is grave.  The kind of dismissal above in unacceptable just as the original defect is not.  Thanks to the hard work of those who reported and diagnosed the problems we got most of them ironed out.  The onus is on Leica to compensate the owners who lost so much time and energy on that.  Not on shouting them down.

[Fred Miranda]

I had some freezing with two M11 camera bodies, and I was able to return them because they were purchased new. These were early models with the initial firmware though. Leica seems to have fixed most problems through firmware updates or silent hardware changes. However, I've also faced problems with two M10-R bodies. One was just 3 months old and needed a shutter replacement, while my current M10-R BP had trouble recognizing some 6-bit lenses. Both were serviced by Leica (very quickly) and have been trouble-free since. My point is that Leica M cameras can still have occasional issues regardless of the model.

[erudolph]

46 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Actually this dismissal of complaints is wrong.  Once I got my first freeze it was terrifying.  Every second shot was a freeze and the card was corrupted (required PhotoRec recovery and still a few shots were lost.)

It’s clear to me that those who have no freezes simply haven’t exercise FOTOS in various scenarios where it’s supposed to work.

Any single instance of a major fault, repeated by even one more person, following a pattern, is grave.  The kind of dismissal above in unacceptable just as the original defect is not.  Thanks to the hard work of those who reported and diagnosed the problems we got most of them ironed out.  The onus is on Leica to compensate the owners who lost so much time and energy on that.  Not on shouting them down.

As a tangent to this topic, a couple of days ago I heard about a man who now has a 19 year old daughter.  He conceived her several years after having a vasectomy and DNA proved he was the father.  He went to the doctor who had performed the vasectomy and the doctor said, “What would you like me to do?”  “Pay for her college tuition?” the man asked.  “Well I can’t do that, but I can redo your vasectomy for free.”  

[IkarusJohn]

I’m a happy M10 user; at least I will be when my M10-D comes back from a heart transplant.

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, setuporg said:

Actually this dismissal of complaints is wrong.  Once I got my first freeze it was terrifying.  Every second shot was a freeze and the card was corrupted (required PhotoRec recovery and still a few shots were lost.)

It’s clear to me that those who have no freezes simply haven’t exercise FOTOS in various scenarios where it’s supposed to work.

Any single instance of a major fault, repeated by even one more person, following a pattern, is grave.  The kind of dismissal above in unacceptable just as the original defect is not.  Thanks to the hard work of those who reported and diagnosed the problems we got most of them ironed out.  The onus is on Leica to compensate the owners who lost so much time and energy on that.  Not on shouting them down.

I remember your efforts to influence potential users of M11 for the past 2 years, without having one yourself.

Can it be Karma that you got a freeze and still feel the need for this treat?

[Al Brown]

1 hour ago, Fred Miranda said:

My point is that Leica M cameras can still have occasional issues regardless of the model.

True, but the gist of this thread put up solely for the sake of provoking was  software/firmware provoked freezes that cannot be mended by Leica, and M11 had them a lot - I personally know 3 people, one with multiple (2) M11s that still freeze up. Your defects were not connected to freezes.
Somebody wrote here on the forum that only 57% or so of Porsche owners are happy owners.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Al Brown

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[setuporg]

20 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I remember your efforts to influence potential users of M11 for the past 2 years, without having one yourself.

Can it be Karma that you got a freeze and still feel the need for this treat?

I have tried the M11 on its launch day.  Haven't clicked then.  I reported my impressions, nobody can infuence anybody here, it's a stubborn bunch.  Watching the growing pains, it was reasonable to wait until the P.  And as it turns out, most quirks were fixed -- the freeze is due to the new CAI subsystem with FOTOS.  Turning off FOTOS made it work fine.  Overall, exactly what was to be expected.  All the work that went into 2.0.1 paid off, and now is a good starting point.

Edited November 6, 2023 by setuporg