M11-S?

[frankchn]

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21 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

The challenge for Leica is, will they produce an M11-S, for simplified, with a return to the relativel simplicity of the M10 based cameras:

• no video
• return to centre-weighted metering off the shutter without live view metering
• no pixel binning
• no crop modes
• larger internal memory

1) As others have mentioned, the M11 doesn’t do video already.

2) It is simpler to build the M11 metering system, since that’s just software using an existing component you must have anyway (the CMOS sensor). The M10 shutter curtain metering requires at least one more light sensor in the camera, so it adds more complexity.

3, 4) These are both software features. Don’t want it, don’t use it. I leave both my M11s on DNG with no crop when I first got the camera and have not touched them since.

5) Already on the M11M (256 GB vs 64), will probably come to the M11P.

In short, I don’t see any market or impetus for Leica to build a M11S as specified.

[lct]

The M11 shutter sound can be irritating at times because it sounds like a stapler but it is less audible than my M240 and much less so than my M8.2. After 1+ year of use, it doesn't bother me any more, to the point that i prefer it to the silence of the electronic shutter.

[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, Photoworks said:

You got Center-weighted metering of the sensor, but what you want is not coming back. It is dead since the company that made the sensor ( originally for the R8) is not making it anymore. And why should they engineer another camera that is less functional and less money, Leica does not do cheep well. 

Metering off the shutter has nothing to do with the sensor.

[T25UFO]

A lower spec S model is an interesting concept, but if it's still made in Germany then I guess the fixed costs won't change much.  Maybe variable costs will reduce, but how much of a difference will that make?

A couple of obvious questions: what is the potential market?  And did the ME sell well enough for Leica to go for another cut price model?

Most people who buy Leica have the disposable income to do so.  While we might bemoan the cost, I just wonder whether this really stops people buying the product.  Spending upwards of GBP 7k on a new camera body with no lens and a method of focusing that can be seriously challenging to the uninitiated will only appeal to the minority anyway.  I'm happy to be part of that minority, but . . . .

[Photoworks]

18 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Metering off the shutter has nothing to do with the sensor.

maybe you misinterpreted my comment.

the light coming back from the shutter is captured by a "light Sensor" that is discontinued because it is no longer made by the supplier.

[IkarusJohn]

1 minute ago, T25UFO said:

A lower spec S model is an interesting concept, but if it's still made in Germany then I guess the fixed costs won't change much.  Maybe variable costs will reduce, but how much of a difference will that make?

A couple of obvious questions: what is the potential market?  And did the ME sell well enough for Leica to go for another cut price model?

Most people who buy Leica have the disposable income to do so.  While we might bemoan the cost, I just wonder whether this really stops people buying the product.  Spending upwards of GBP 7k on a new camera body with no lens and a method of focusing that can be seriously challenging to the uninitiated will only appeal to the minority anyway.  I'm happy to be part of that minority, but . . . .

I’m not sure that cost is the issue, provided it isn’t obscene.  For perspective, the X2D is $800 less, and the XCD lenses are cheaper (bar the rebadged SL lenses).  Granted, it’s medium format which makes it slower; but it is a more complete camera (in my view) - a larger version of teh same sensor, IBIS, good AF, nice manual focus with focus confirmation.  But … it’s bigger, heavier and doesn’t have a rangefinder.

One of the main attractions of the M system is what it doesn’t have.

[IkarusJohn]

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1 minute ago, Photoworks said:

maybe you misinterpreted my comment.

the light coming back from the shutter is captured by a "light Sensor" that is discontinued because it is no longer made by the supplier.

Ah, sorry.

Do we know it is no longer made?  @lct raises a good point - the M10-R is still available (though presumably in run-out).  I’d be amazed if Leica could not source the off shutter meter sensors to repair every digital M made since 2006.  Bear in mind the MP and M6 also meter off the white spot on the shutter curtain.

[Photoworks]

9 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m not sure that cost is the issue, provided it isn’t obscene.  For perspective, the X2D is $800 less, and the XCD lenses are cheaper (bar the rebadged SL lenses).  Granted, it’s medium format which makes it slower; but it is a more complete camera (in my view) - a larger version of teh same sensor, IBIS, good AF, nice manual focus with focus confirmation.  But … it’s bigger, heavier and doesn’t have a rangefinder.

One of the main attractions of the M system is what it doesn’t have.

this argument that the price should be across the market is mute if you consider location influences the price. In the US, many Leica prices are already higher. 

In any case, prices are just going up, in October Japan will pay more for a new camera.

Hasselblad is a nice option but if you talk to Hasselblad or read their certification, you will see it comes from Shenzhen China. and nowhere does it say anymore Mage in Germany, not that quality can not be achieved in China, just that labor costs in Germany are for sure higher. 

Leica already has a slow production and many products, even successful ones, are often out of stock and have waiting times. Adding a low-end M camera will complicate and Delude their offerings. It is after all a for-profit company, doing well now, but I remember how the company almost went don't in 80-90's

[IkarusJohn]

While price is always an issue, it wasn’t the point of this thread.  Both my Monochrom and my M10-D have “less” than the base model, but cost more.

[charlesphoto99]

@Photoworks Hasselblad's are/were made in Sweden, though in the past with German glass.

[jakontil]

4 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

@Photoworks Hasselblad's are/were made in Sweden, though in the past with German glass.

Their glass for the XCD lenses at least were made in japan? I might be wrong 

anyway, discussing the price of M11S allegedly if there’s ever, i dont really think people will choose it over M11 based on the price alone, like in my case, i’d pick it over M11 solely because it is what im familiar with, with the addition of usb c, fast wifi and bluetooth connectivity and longer battery life

for leica, less is more 😀😀😀 so dont think price will ever be cheaper anyway

[adan]

@IkarusJohn

I think one reason Leica deleted the off-the-shutter metering option was to have more space for other electronics. A dedicated metering sensor, housing, and circuitry probably take up three cubic cms of internal volume, that Leica eventually decided were better devoted to other things (such as the larger battery, the USB-C connection, or simply a less cramped shutter chamber).

Personally, I am also sticking with the M10 family (original, -P, -M for higher ISOs), so I'm in full support of your quest for a simpler M as an eventual replacement.

But I am afraid the dedicated OTS metering system - in the digital Ms - may be something Leica has permanently discarded, as "surplus to requirements."

I doubt it will be something Leica will simply retrofit into an M11-S - the "guts" have changed too much now.

I hope I am wrong - I would like the "single-click" shutter available in the future. We'll have to see which direction an M12 takes.

As to a price, I think the lens competition from Voigtländer, Zeiss ZM (what is left of it), China and others means Leica is no longer counting on a camera sale producing 3-5 Leica lens sales. The bodies have to produce profit all on their own. Thus the price of "a new Leica M camera" is now $9000 US - regardless of features.

[Makage]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:27 AM, IkarusJohn said:

My existing cameras haven’t stopped working just because Leica has released a camera I’m not interested in.  But I would like think there is a future for my with a digital M.  I’m already selling off my L mount gear.

I say forget what Leica does with the M in the future. The M is never going back to what it used to be. Sorry. If your cameras do stop working and can no longer be repaired you have some options. 

Get another working M10 or go film. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Makage

[IkarusJohn]

27 minutes ago, Makage said:

I say forget what Leica does with the M in the future. The M is never going back to what it used to be. Sorry. If your cameras do stop working and can no longer be repaired you have some options. 

Get another working M10 or go film. 

Why sorry?

[dpitt]

Maybe the way forward is an even better electronic shutter? Leica could add a customizable noise (volume/sound) to give some feedback of a shot being taken. If they can make it as good as or even better than the mechanical one in the M11, I think it would be an improvement to use the LV and matrix exposure metering in the next generation of the M. For example the TL2 has 1/40.000 shutter time on electronic shutter.

+1 for a M11-S version with 24MP or 36MP if it is at least 25% off the M11 price. Otherwise, I would gladly accept the additional MP for occasional use and turn on pixel binning when that is more convenient.

I do not have a M11 (yet) so correct me if I am wrong.

[Makage]

22 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Why sorry?

I believe it’s very unfortunate the future of the M is more complications and not less. For me the M10R is the last digital M I will ever own. If it comes to the point Leica is unable to repair it; then i will probably own an M2. 

IMO, I’ll be able to shoot the M10R for the rest of my photographic life. I may have another 25-30 years to live. I think the Leica M10R will last me that long. At least another 20 years.

The Leica M8 is about to be 20 years in 2026 and there are people still happily using it. Recently a friend of mine sent one back for repairs.  needed a new shutter, came back as good as new.

I’m not a professional. I’m not in the field. My Leica is living a very easy life. I’m sure at some point it’ll need repairs that Leica will be able to do; and it’ll breathe more life into it. So I don’t need to worry about this really. 

The future of the M is a 100% EVF mirrorless camera with manual lenses and the Leica M “look” but without even a rangefinder. It’ll have more and more features and more and more pages of settings. It’ll be fun when they bring back video. It’ll be 4K at first and then people will complain that it’s not the right video format, frame rates, that it needs raw video and an HDMI output.

A baby SL in the body of an M just for nostalgia’s sake. For the hipsters.

i’m not sure if all the lenses will eventually go to AF and manual focus will be just an option to turn on and off. I wouldn’t put it past them. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Makage

[adan]

5 hours ago, dpitt said:

Maybe the way forward is an even better electronic shutter? Leica could add a customizable noise (volume/sound) to give some feedback of a shot being taken.

A silent shutter with a customizable artificial noise seems more like a 20-year-step backwards - it is pretty much how the 2004 Panasonic-built Digilux 2 functioned.

[Kwesi]

6 hours ago, dpitt said:

Maybe the way forward is an even better electronic shutter? Leica could add a customizable noise (volume/sound) to give some feedback of a shot being taken. If they can make it as good as or even better than the mechanical one in the M11, I think it would be an improvement to use the LV and matrix exposure metering in the next generation of the M. For example the TL2 has 1/40.000 shutter time on electronic shutter.

+1 for a M11-S version with 24MP or 36MP if it is at least 25% off the M11 price. Otherwise, I would gladly accept the additional MP for occasional use and turn on pixel binning when that is more convenient.

I do not have a M11 (yet) so correct me if I am wrong.

I actually love the way the silent shutter feedback is implemented in the M11.

1 - There's a very subtle tactile feedback when you press down the shutter far enough to make an exposure. Great for lectures and classical music concerts

2 - You get visual confirmation in the viewfinder : three dashes ( - - - ) briefly replace the exposure indicator.

[evikne]

31 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

There's a very subtle tactile feedback when you press down the shutter far enough to make an exposure.

I've been wondering about this, thanks for the clarification! I don't really need a shutter sound (although I love the sound of an analog M), but I couldn't live without some form of haptic feedback.

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[charlesphoto99]

15 hours ago, jakontil said:

Their glass for the XCD lenses at least were made in japan? I might be wrong 

 

You are right, which is why I clarified with "in the past." The lenses for the X-Pan were also made by Fujinon if I'm correct.