M11-S?

[charlesphoto99]

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15 hours ago, jakontil said:

Their glass for the XCD lenses at least were made in japan? I might be wrong 

 

You are right, which is why I clarified with "in the past." The lenses for the X-Pan were also made by Fujinon if I'm correct. 

[charlesphoto99]

7 hours ago, Makage said:

 

IMO, I’ll be able to shoot the M10R for the rest of my photographic life. I may have another 25-30 years to live. I think the Leica M10R will last me that long. At least another 20 years.

 

Same here, fingers crossed. My biggest concern might be batteries, esp as one can't get aftermarket for the M10 like you could for the 8/9. And if Leica don't keep in stock main or sub boards, that could be a real issue. I was hoping my $10k Imacon would last me forever with proper maintenance, but alas a couple of years back it went bust with no mainboards to be found anywhere. 

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[Makage]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Same here, fingers crossed. My biggest concern might be batteries, esp as one can't get aftermarket for the M10 like you could for the 8/9. And if Leica don't keep in stock main or sub boards, that could be a real issue. I was hoping my $10k Imacon would last me forever with proper maintenance, but alas a couple of years back it went bust with no mainboards to be found anywhere. 

In a few years I’ll get a new one but won’t throw away the old ones. It’s not like they won’t work, they just won’t last as long. So instead of 2, I may end up with 4 over the years. 

After I settled on the M10R I haven’t kept up with cameras. It’s such a boring topic to me. I don’t know who has what and what the latest thing is now. I don’t really care about new cameras anymore. 

Again, if this one breaks beyond repair, I’ll try to get rid of it and recover some money and go for an M2. There’s a shop 10 minutes from me that develops and scans.

I’m honestly done with digital cameras. The 10R is all I would need for a camera to do. I think with the M10R Leica perfected the digital M. Anything after is just chasing specs and competing with other mirrorless manufacturers. The new crop of M cameras is for that crowd. The ones who come from Fuji and Sony. They want all of that but they like the body of the M. They want what they had. It in an M body. And Leica will give it to them. 

the “classic digital M” as we knew it is finished. It reached the end of the line. Now the M is on another path. 
 

The M11 is the first Leica M of this new Leica M chapter and I think that’s why it has so many issues. Eventually it’ll be reliable I’m sure, but it’ll be very far from the simple M10 we knew. When you had to hold cameras properly to not have motion blur. Or simply just increase the ISO and shutter speed. The way it has been done forever. Or just have the photo be blurry. What’s wrong with blurry? Or slightly out of focus?

I just bought Found, not lost. Half of the photos in that book are blurry and out of focus and they’re all amazing.

I don’t care how sharp anyone’s photos here are, they’ll never be as great at those photos. 

People are focusing on all the WRONG things. But whatever. Everyone will have what they desire. Just a matter of time. 

and if Erwitt were alive to see those days he’ll still prefer to shoot his M3 and he’ll still make better images than anyone here with an M12-13-14-15 with the IBIS and the EVFs and the triple resolutions and the various metering modes, and the eye tracking (because I’m sure that’s coming to the M. Auto tracking of faces and eyes to aid the manual focus like in the new Nikon Zf), and etc etc and all the other fucking bullshit they can possibly cram into the Leica M that will eventually not have a rangefinder or an optical viewfinder at all or even a shutter so they can take portraits of their cats at f0.95 and 1/10000000 sec. 
 

and Erwitt will take his photos from the other place after he passes with his rusty Leica M3. And if anyone here loves their M10 then just keep it and ignore the noise. You have what you need to make a good image. To make a great image. So the fault isn’t in the camera. That’s not the reason why your images aren’t great. 

Edited September 26 by Makage

[IkarusJohn]

9 hours ago, Makage said:

IMO, I’ll be able to shoot the M10R for the rest of my photographic life. I may have another 25-30 years to live. I think the Leica M10R will last me that long. At least another 20 years.

I hope you’re right.

While people are still using digital M cameras, Leica’s “camera for life” reputation has not survived the electronic age so well - they can’t repair something as simple as the meter on an M6 (though that may change); or the LCD on an M8 (coffee stain); or the defective sensors on M9 based cameras.  We’ve been discussing Leica’s supply chain problems on this forum for 10 years.

Until my M10-D suddenly died (an “SD” card failure, which now requires the replacement of the entire electronics in the camera, at considerable cost), the M10 seemed pretty good.  In my own case, my M9, Monochrom, M Edition 60, SL and M10-D have all had to go back to Wetzlar for an electronic failure of some sort (in two cases, the cameras died).

Meanwhile, I’ve “invested” in 10 fine M lenses.  They are the base of my camera system.  I have an use and M-A, but travel is rather pointless with film (unless I drive).  I hope my relatively “simple” Monochrom sees me out, but I use it in the knowledge that when the electronics fail, it can’t be repaired.

Now, as you say, when my digital Ms eventually die, I could look for an M10-R and M10-M, but that would be in the knowledge that they could not be repaired either.

I’m really enjoying my X2D, and it is fabulous with my Noctilux, but it is really only an M platform with reasonably serious cropping.  Will Hasselblad be any better with long term repairs?  Maybe not, but the X2D is exactly what I would like a future M to be - what I need, and nothing more.  Meanwhile, the M11’s release has been problematic, compared to the trouble free experience of the M1 based cameras (my recent electronic failure excepted).

So, yes I’d like Leica to go back to the M10, and just refine it. 

Edited September 26 by IkarusJohn

[dpitt]

10 hours ago, Makage said:

IMO, I’ll be able to shoot the M10R for the rest of my photographic life. I may have another 25-30 years to live. I think the Leica M10R will last me that long. At least another 20 years.

The Leica M8 is about to be 20 years in 2026 and there are people still happily using it. Recently a friend of mine sent one back for repairs.  needed a new shutter, came back as good as new.

I’m not a professional. I’m not in the field. My Leica is living a very easy life. I’m sure at some point it’ll need repairs that Leica will be able to do; and it’ll breathe more life into it. So I don’t need to worry about this really. 

The future of the M is a 100% EVF mirrorless camera with manual lenses and the Leica M “look” but without even a rangefinder. It’ll have more and more features and more and more pages of settings. It’ll be fun when they bring back video. It’ll be 4K at first and then people will complain that it’s not the right video format, frame rates, that it needs raw video and an HDMI output.

A baby SL in the body of an M just for nostalgia’s sake. For the hipsters.

i’m not sure if all the lenses will eventually go to AF and manual focus will be just an option to turn on and off. I wouldn’t put it past them. 

As an electronic engineer, I think it is not impossible for an M10 to reach 30 years of age. As long as compatible batteries are made for an other 20 years (not old stock but freshly produced).

But some luck will need to be involved. I would not be surprised if 30% of the M10 stock would have died long before reaching 30 years, because of an accident or failure of a critical part. I think at least 10% of the stock will just be dead because of an electronic part failing. And the amount of use has not much to do with it. Semiconductors age, even when not in use, capacitors too. Of course, if your M10 dies, I am sure you will be able to find an other one that still works to replace it.

 

 

Edited September 26 by dpitt

[Makage]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

I hope you’re right.

While people are still using digital M cameras, Leica’s “camera for life” reputation has not survived the electronic age so well - they can’t repair something as simple as the meter on an M6 (though that may change); or the LCD on an M8 (coffee stain); or the defective sensors on M9 based cameras.  We’ve been discussing Leica’s supply chain problems on this forum for 10 years.

Until my M10-D suddenly died (an “SD” card failure, which now requires the replacement of the entire electronics in the camera, at considerable cost), the M10 seemed pretty good.  In my own case, my M9, Monochrom, M Edition 60, SL and M10-D have all had to go back to Wetzlar for an electronic failure of some sort (in two cases, the cameras died).

Meanwhile, I’ve “invested” in 10 fine M lenses.  They are the base of my camera system.  I have an use and M-A, but travel is rather pointless with film (unless I drive).  I hope my relatively “simple” Monochrom sees me out, but I use it in the knowledge that when the electronics fail, it can’t be repaired.

Now, as you say, when my digital Ms eventually die, I could look for an M10-R and M10-M, but that would be in the knowledge that they could not be repaired either.

I’m really enjoying my X2D, and it is fabulous with my Noctilux, but it is really only an M platform with reasonably serious cropping.  Will Hasselblad be any better with long term repairs?  Maybe not, but the X2D is exactly what I would like a future M to be - what I need, and nothing more.  Meanwhile, the M11’s release has been problematic, compared to the trouble free experience of the M1 based cameras (my recent electronic failure excepted).

So, yes I’d like Leica to go back to the M10, and just refine it. 

Eventually every electronic gadget I’ve ever owned failed. It’s what happens to electronics. 

There are plenty of digital M’s still chugging along. Any other digital camera I buy will die too. There are M11’s dying a few months after purchase. It happens. 

I’ll keep mine and keep shooting. It’s been 2 years of no issues so far. 

In your case your digital Leica M cameras , starting with the 12 year old M9 Monochrome, have failed and been repaired by Leica. So no issues.

Leica recently announced that they can’t replace the M6 boards anymore. but that’s after nearly 40 years of making them. Leica M8 no LCDs. I think that’s okay. The camera is nearly 20 years old. My friend just had a replacement shutter. So even with a coffee stained LCD the camera still has life and it works. 

I don’t think I have more than 30 years to live. I’ll probably stop taking photos way before I die. I think Leica will be able to keep my M10R chugging along for a long time. It’s 2 years down already. I’m thinking maybe 18 more to go. 

It’s really amazing we are talking about our 20 year old Leica M8 can’t have the LCD replaced. How many people shooting Fujis and Sonys are going to have their cameras 20 years from now? My guess is 0. unlike them, is Leica users keep our cameras very long. It’s amazing that my friend still goes out and shoots with that M8. I don’t know if that’s the same with the new generation Leica M owners who are already salivating and ready to sell their M11 they just bought for the M11P or whatever comes next. 

If that’s the customer base now, what’s the point spending so much money making things that last forever when your base changed their camera every 2 years. And that’s good. Profits. It’s the generation now. Everything is disposable. just start making disposable electronics like everyone else. 

But again, the last resort will be to go film. I’ll just do some research where I’ll be and buy the film and develop it there. Just bring back the developed negatives. If they scan too then great. I won’t shoot a lot anyway. For example, when I visit my mom in PR I can just take only my camera and then go here 

https://instagram.com/bocadelobofilmlab?igshid=NzZhOTFlYzFmZQ==

shoot a few rolls and they’ll do everything for me. I can packe the developed film in my bag and go back home. They’ll scan them too. Don’t need to worry about traveling with film. 

if I go for a few days like Europe or something I can always get a cheap disposable Fuji or something like that. All I need is a good raw file. Any camera can do. Actually I just suggested a newbie with $0 budget to get the Canon 2000D. That thing is $4xx and comes with a kit lens. 😅 And that can take good enough photos. I can get the plastic fantastic 35/50 canon primes and go on my vacation. Don’t even care if someone steals it. 

Edited September 26 by Makage

[newtoleica]

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I recently stopped shooting Olympus OM4Ti cameras that are now pushing 25 or more years old. Some have died but I never had an issue with mine. 
I won’t be worrying about the M10-P for a while. Of course ‘stuff happens’. I used to shoot the Olympus in pairs and had 12 of them at one stage. That would be a bit pricey with Leicas!

[Makage]

1 minute ago, newtoleica said:

I recently stopped shooting Olympus OM4Ti cameras that are now pushing 25 or more years old. Some have died but I never had an issue with mine. 
I won’t be worrying about the M10-P for a while. Of course ‘stuff happens’. I used to shoot the Olympus in pairs and had 12 of them at one stage. That would be a bit pricey with Leicas!

Yea. I mean. You really don’t need a nice camera to make a great picture. The Leica for me is an experience I will never forget. And I think the M10R will get me through most of my photographic journey. Well at least a lot of it. 
 

Hopefully nothing catastrophic will happen to mine. Let’s say I have a 70-80% chance that my particular M10R (which is a black paint limited edition one) will last me say 25 years with repairs at least once maybe twice during its lifetime. That’s good enough for me. I’ll be entering my 70’s by then. I don’t think I’ll be running around taking many photos. But maybe I will. Who knows. I can get some money back and get anything. Maybe some used junkie cheap camera with a 50mm lens and I’ll just keep taking pictures.

[IkarusJohn]

Not sure I agree with any of that, but good luck!

I'm realistic about electronic cameras; particularly based on my experience.  The Monochrom repair was to replace the sensor - that was about 8 years ago.  No further repairs available for those electronics.  I'm sure they can replace the shutter button, or realign the rangefinder for the next 50 years, but without the electronics, that doesn't help.  That is my point.

Long term, my SWC and my M-A will keep chugging along, film will be available and I am confident someone will repair them if needed.  For the price of their digital cameras, I think Leica can do better.  Just to go back on topic, the M camera and Leica have always been about improving what they make, and doing only what is necessary - they seem to have forgotten that with the M11.

Now, I have no problem with an M11 or M12 doing everything technology allows.  But I won't be a buyer.  Leica won't notice.  But, I don't think I'm alone wanting a digital version of the MP, and an upgraded version of the M9 and M10.  That is what Leica has always been about.

[fenykepesz]

WOW, OM4Ti, that wakes up old memories in me !!!  spot metering, zone system, Ansel Adams !  some 30 or more years ago !  what a nice piece of camera !

mine didn't break, but i lost it on a train ride from Zürich to Basel, left it in the wagon i believe, idiot me, when walking over to the french part at the train station !

having said that, today, i am more than happy with my M10-D...which i keep carrying around my neck all the time - i learned my lesson(s).

[newtoleica]

18 minutes ago, fenykepesz said:

WOW, OM4Ti, that wakes up old memories in me !!!  spot metering, zone system, Ansel Adams !  some 30 or more years ago !  what a nice piece of camera !

mine didn't break, but i lost it on a train ride from Zürich to Basel, left it in the wagon i believe, idiot me, when walking over to the french part at the train station !

having said that, today, i am more than happy with my M10-D...which i keep carrying around my neck all the time - i learned my lesson(s).

Best metering system ever…. Spot spot spot and drop your exposure in the zone you want. All done in a couple of seconds. I had a pair of OM3Ti as well with a mechanical shutter. 

[geotrupede]

36 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

I recently stopped shooting Olympus OM4Ti cameras that are now pushing 25 or more years old. Some have died but I never had an issue with mine. 
I won’t be worrying about the M10-P for a while. Of course ‘stuff happens’. I used to shoot the Olympus in pairs and had 12 of them at one stage. That would be a bit pricey with Leicas!

The OM series... legend!

OM3 remains a desire, fantastic cameras.

BTW, OM lenses with adapter on SL2S, and M11, great stuff. the 50 1.4 and the 35 2.8 shift, stellar.

[charlesphoto99]

I did have to send back my black paint M10-R recently because the back buttons wouldn't work over a certain temperature. No idea what they fixed. So, yeah, a bit worrisome for the long long term. 

 

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

Just to go back on topic, the M camera and Leica have always been about improving what they make, and doing only what is necessary - they seem to have forgotten that with the M11.

Leica is still doing that. The current state of camera technology is that one camera can be customized in a myriad ways to suit each user's unique need.

You actually can shoot the M11 like an MP, I do. Don't let the forest stop you from seeing the tree. 

[IkarusJohn]

12 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Leica is still doing that. The current state of camera technology is that one camera can be customized in a myriad ways to suit each user's unique need.

You actually can shoot the M11 like an MP, I do. Don't let the forest stop you from seeing the tree. 

I understand that, but like the M(240), I think this is a wrong turn - way too many MP (completely unnecessary); and going to permanent live view.  Neiother of these can be customized away.  The M11 indicates a shift, perhaps to a younger demographic, but it isn’t a good one from my perspective.

Your comment about using the M11 like an M10 has been made since the M11 first broke cover, but that is only part of the picture.  If you accept Leica’s long standing approach to photography, adding USB-C charging, improving WiFi (have they actually improved it?), updating the processor and including internal memory were all welcome.  The rest looks like “Snapshot” mode on the M9 - completely unnecessary.

What I’d really like is DNG files only (like my Monochrom), raw histogram, 40MP or less and none of the rest of the M11 improvements.  As Leica has only just stopped producing the M10 based cameras, there is actuall no reason why this couldn’t be done.  I get it that Leica would much prefer everyone to buy into the new M11 paradigm, but there have always been variants …

[pippy]

The answer is simple. Everything which is - and nothing which is not - an M-D Typ-262 fitted into an M10-sized body. This would be digital-M perfection.

IMHO.

P.

Edited September 26 by pippy

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, dpitt said:

if your M10 dies, I am sure you will be able to find an other one that still works to replace it.

 

 

This. Same with M8, M9 or any other “mainstream” M digitals.  I carry insurance in case any of my M bodies die and I want a replacement.  At 73, not a worry finding what I want in my remaining productive lifetime.  
 

That said, it would be nice if Leica continues to produce M variants, as they have done over the years, including “simplified” models.  This is the same company that still produces film M models. 
 

Jeff

[Makage]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I did have to send back my black paint M10-R recently because the back buttons wouldn't work over a certain temperature. No idea what they fixed. So, yeah, a bit worrisome for the long long term. 

 

Cameras do stop working if they overheat. But mine has been very hot and has never failed. 

All electronic devices fail eventually. It’s just a matter of time. Yours did, was sent to be fixed, and now it’s back. As long as it can be fixed then great. Fixing isn’t an issue for me. Everything needs fixing eventually. 

[Makage]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

This. Same with M8, M9 or any other “mainstream” M digitals.  I carry insurance in case any of my M bodies die and I want a replacement.  At 73, not a worry finding what I want in my remaining productive lifetime.  
 

That said, it would be nice if Leica continues to produce M variants, as they have done over the years, including “simplified” models.  This is the same company that still produces film M models. 
 

Jeff

I would love for Leica to make an M10R mkii under some new name. But this seems like it has 0% chance of happening. By the time my M10R can no longer be repaired, the Leica M will be an M only in appearance. The rest will be like a Sony with a manual focus lens. 

I can’t wait for Leica M users to demand that eye/face/subject detection like the Nikon Zf. It’ll all be nice to watch.

Hopefully they’ll keep the manual control dials at least. 

There will always be a Leica M2 recently serviced overhauled and repainted by Kanto that I can buy painted in glorious Olive so… doesn’t matter. 😀

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[Makage]

36 minutes ago, pippy said:

The answer is simple. Everything which is - and nothing which is not - an M-D Typ-262 fitted into an M10-sized body. This would be digital-M perfection.

IMHO.

P.

Since the rangefinder is destined for the axe in the M in favor of a very high resolution and fast frame refresh EVF, the screen will be pointless for some. At that point the only use for one would be if they make it tilt.