M11-S?

[IkarusJohn]

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Yogi Berra is haunting me …

[Jeff S]

7 minutes ago, Makage said:

I would love for Leica to make an M10R mkii under some new name. But this seems like it has 0% chance of happening. By the time my M10R can no longer be repaired, the Leica M will be an M only in appearance. The rest will be like a Sony with a manual focus lens. 

 

But my point is that one could still find another M10-R, if continued use were the concern.  

I’ve learned not to predict what Leica may or may not produce.  As a bettor, I would have lost a lot of $ over the years; just as most anyone else outside the company. 
 

Jeff

 

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[Makage]

12 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Yogi Berra is haunting me …

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Makage]

13 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

But my point is that one could still find another M10-R, if continued use were the concern.  

I’ve learned not to predict what Leica may or may not produce.  As a bettor, I would have lost a lot of $ over the years; just as most anyone else outside the company. 
 

Jeff

 

Just because of how it’s going, Leica has now sat inside the same race car everyone else is in. Unless they completely kill the mission of the Leica M11 I think the future of the M is very clear. Once you’re in this race it’s easy to predict what it will be next. Like predicting the Sony A7RVI. Should be very easy. 

Everyone could see the 40MP Fuji coming a couple of years in advance. Once Canon was making the 32MP APS-C cameras. It’s just where the sensor manufacturers were going. 

We know the future of the A7R for example is 100MP, and so will the Leica M since they’re now using their sensors. Same with the SL. 

I for one I’m sad the Leica M is in this race with everyone else. It used to be in its own island. But I’ve spent some time reading around here and it is what most people want. They want more and more and more. And more is coming so nobody has to worry about that. It’s coming. All of it. Eventually the M will only need you to press the shutter. It’ll do everything else for you. for nostalgia’s sake they will let you move the focusing. But it’ll be so easy by then. No more rangefinders. And it’ll be magnified so no problems. It’ll be way too easy. 

and I know people read that and say, what’s wrong with that? I can just focus on the picture. My eyes are bad. I can’t see the patch. In low light I can’t focus. It’s better to have an EVF and focus peaking. IBIS is better. Electronic shutter only is better. More is better. 

so they’ll have it all. Soon. 

Edited September 26 by Makage

[frankchn]

5 minutes ago, Makage said:

I for one I’m sad the Leica M is in this race with everyone else. It used to be in its own island. But I’ve spent some time reading around here and it is what most people want.

You can't fight it. For instance, Sony Semiconductors now makes the vast majority of CMOS sensors for everyone else (bar Canon), and like it or not they will EOL old sensors and offer newer, higher megapixel sensors in their product portfolio. Leica doesn't sell nearly enough M cameras to get Sony to build a custom low MP sensor no matter how much forum members want, so they will get swept along and put higher MP sensors in their cameras.

If you want a true old school experience, get an M-P or an M-A I guess.

[Jeff S]

14 minutes ago, Makage said:

Just because of how it’s going, Leica has now sat inside the same race car everyone else is in. Unless they completely kill the mission of the Leica M11 I think the future of the M is very clear. Once you’re in this race it’s easy to predict what it will be next. Like predicting the Sony A7RVI. Should be very easy. 

Everyone could see the 40MP Fuji coming a couple of years in advance. Once Canon was making the 32MP APS-C cameras. It’s just where the sensor manufacturers were going. 

We know the future of the A7R for example is 100MP, and so will the Leica M since they’re now using their sensors. Same with the SL. 

I for one I’m sad the Leica M is in this race with everyone else. It used to be in its own island. But I’ve spent some time reading around here and it is what most people want. They want more and more and more. And more is coming so nobody has to worry about that. It’s coming. All of it. Eventually the M will only need you to press the shutter. It’ll do everything else for you. for nostalgia’s sake they will let you move the focusing. But it’ll be so easy by then. No more rangefinders. And it’ll be magnified so no problems. It’ll be way too easy. 

and I know people read that and say, what’s wrong with that? I can just focus on the picture. My eyes are bad. I can’t see the patch. In low light I can’t focus. It’s better to have an EVF and focus peaking. IBIS is better. Electronic shutter only is better. More is better. 

so they’ll have it all. Soon. 

I’m sure you foresaw the first digital M (when Leica said it was impossible), the monochromatic M (when even current fans here laughed at the notion), a screen-less M (while many outside the Leica community still chuckle), a new M6 (when the world is moving away from film camera production), a high resolution M (M10-R) concurrent with a lower resolution base camera, close focus M lenses that aren’t compatible with the RF, etc.  

Yup, the future is crystal clear.

Jeff

 

Edited September 26 by Jeff S

[Makage]

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1 hour ago, frankchn said:

You can't fight it. For instance, Sony Semiconductors now makes the vast majority of CMOS sensors for everyone else (bar Canon), and like it or not they will EOL old sensors and offer newer, higher megapixel sensors in their product portfolio. Leica doesn't sell nearly enough M cameras to get Sony to build a custom low MP sensor no matter how much forum members want, so they will get swept along and put higher MP sensors in their cameras.

If you want a true old school experience, get an M-P or an M-A I guess.

Well, I feel lucky to have the 40MP Leica sensor in mine. Their best sensor IMO when it comes to every day photography. 

But as you say, we always have the film cameras. and those all mechanical no meter ones really last forever if taken care of. 
 

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

I’m sure you foresaw the first digital M (when Leica said it was impossible), the monochromatic M (when even current fans here laughed at the notion), a screen-less M (while many outside the Leica community still chuckle), a new M6 (when the world is moving away from film camera production), a high resolution M (M10-R) concurrent with a lower resolution base camera, close focus M lenses that aren’t compatible with the RF, etc.  

Yup, the future is crystal clear.

Jeff

 

Back then Leica could only tell you what they could do with the technology that was available at the time. There was a time when Fuji said they couldn’t do IBIS. Then we saw the tech grow and we could easily predict when the XT would introduce IBIS which was the more video centric XT4. 

Then we saw the APS-C sensors move beyond 24MP and we knew this batch of Fujis would have 30-40MP sensors. And bang. They came out at 40MP. 

It’s not difficult to predict it. That’s what all those rumors sites are. Predictions. More times than not all of them come true. Especially now that Leica is using tech everyone else is (like Sony sensors). The M10R was obvious as the M-Monochrome was using that sensor. I knew the sensor would come out in color. The surprise was to go with the Sony 60MP instead of using their 40MP sensor. Off they went to the races. Now it is even easier to predict. 

Screen-less M’s are just like rangefinder-less M’s which Leica produced a very long time ago. Or viewfinder-less M’s… It’s the whole retro thing. Same with a film advance lever in a digital camera. Silliest thing I ever saw. Never could’ve predicted that one. But the tech is very easy to predict. 

I know for a fact the Leica M will be 100MP and so is the future Sony AR cameras. Why? Because Sony has been working on this sensor for a couple of years already. 
 

https://petapixel.com/2019/04/01/sony-made-a-100mp-and-6k-full-frame-sensor-for-consumer-cameras/#:~:text=Sony has reportedly developed a,and in the EOSHD forums.

 

since they all get their sensors from Sony they’ll all be based on this. Nikon, Leica, Sony. All of them. In fact the raw files from all those cameras, after some editing, will look nearly identical. 

Edited September 27 by Makage

[jakontil]

As we speak, i just get myself an MP classic, that wonderful feeling, repairable… just wish ilford keep making films 

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, Makage said:

Well, I feel lucky to have the 40MP Leica sensor in mine. Their best sensor IMO when it comes to every day photography. 

But as you say, we always have the film cameras. and those all mechanical no meter ones really last forever if taken care of. 
 

Back then Leica could only tell you what they could do with the technology that was available at the time. There was a time when Fuji said they couldn’t do IBIS. Then we saw the tech grow and we could easily predict when the XT would introduce IBIS which was the more video centric XT4. 

Then we saw the APS-C sensors move beyond 24MP and we knew this batch of Fujis would have 30-40MP sensors. And bang. They came out at 40MP. 

It’s not difficult to predict it. That’s what all those rumors sites are. Predictions. More times than not all of them come true. Especially now that Leica is using tech everyone else is (like Sony sensors). The M10R was obvious as the M-Monochrome was using that sensor. I knew the sensor would come out in color. The surprise was to go with the Sony 60MP instead of using their 40MP sensor. Off they went to the races. Now it is even easier to predict. 

Screen-less M’s are just like rangefinder-less M’s which Leica produced a very long time ago. Or viewfinder-less M’s… It’s the whole retro thing. Same with a film advance lever in a digital camera. Silliest thing I ever saw. Never could’ve predicted that one. But the tech is very easy to predict. 

I know for a fact the Leica M will be 100MP and so is the future Sony AR cameras. Why? Because Sony has been working on this sensor for a couple of years already. 
 

https://petapixel.com/2019/04/01/sony-made-a-100mp-and-6k-full-frame-sensor-for-consumer-cameras/#:~:text=Sony has reportedly developed a,and in the EOSHD forums.

 

since they all get their sensors from Sony they’ll all be based on this. Nikon, Leica, Sony. All of them. In fact the raw files from all those cameras, after some editing, will look nearly identical. 

So you just joined the forum on Sunday, but long before that you were actually Nostradamus.

Jeff

[adan]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Yogi Berra is haunting me …

 

2 hours ago, Makage said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

So it goes......

In his first-published sci-fi novel The Sands of Mars (1951) Arthur C. Clarke describes the protagonist/writer, Martin Gibson, whipping out his (apparently film) camera to photograph the Red Planet as his spaceliner Ares approaches.

The camera is identified as a Leica XXIII - i.e. a Roman-numeral extension of the Barnack screw-mount series.  

(No date is specified for the setting of the novel, but "chrono-locating" from other Clarke novels implies sometime between 1990 and 2023 (a.k.a MMXXIII. Coincidence?)

[IkarusJohn]

8 minutes ago, adan said:

 

So it goes......

In his first-published sci-fi novel The Sands of Mars (1951) Arthur C. Clarke describes the protagonist/writer, Martin Gibson, whipping out his (apparently film) camera to photograph the Red Planet as his spaceliner Ares approaches.

The camera is identified as a Leica XXIII - i.e. a Roman-numeral extension of the Barnack screw-mount series.  

(No date is specified for the setting of the novel, but "chrono-locating" from other Clarke novels implies sometime between 1990 and 2023 (a.k.a MMXXIII. Coincidence?)

Actually, the quote I was alluding to was deja vu all over again.  As the Romans used to say, nihil sub sole novum … I’d refer our new friend to the immense forum archive of previous discussions of pretty much every point he raises, but that just makes me feel tired.

My favourite Yogi Berra - no one goes there anymore, it’s too crowded …

 

[pippy]

7 hours ago, Makage said:

...Screen-less M’s are just like rangefinder-less M’s which Leica produced a very long time ago. Or viewfinder-less M’s…

Eh? With respect, Makage, that's sheer nonsense. How on Earth do you reach that conclusion?

The M1 didn't have a rangefinder but had a viewfinder. The MD / MDa / MD-2 had neither a rangefinder nor a viewfinder. The screenless digital M cameras, on the contrary, have both a rangefinder and a viewfinder.

If you wish to nominate a 'Film-World' equivalent to, say, the M-D Typ-262 the closest would be the M6 or, if some degree of automatic exposure is desired, the M7.

In use these cameras all function in an identical manner with the exception of the convenience / get-out-of-jail clause of the variable ISO possibility found on the 262 and not having to swap film-rolls after every 12 / 20 / 24 / 36 frames.

Philip.

Edited September 27 by pippy

[mfunnell]

Trying (🙏) to return to the original track of this - I have to say that I have not had a real problem with Leica M-type digital cameras having features I don't use.

Sure, it's 'old' now, but I bought my M typ 240 when it was "the latest and greatest". I've used the 'Visoflex' EVF a very few times (mostly just to test that it works; and, yes, mine is actually an Olympus VF-2). A far as I can recall, I've never used my M240 for video - even for testing. Having set it up the way I want (YMMV, of course) I only touch the on-screen menu for four things: manually setting the lens mounted; checking the histogram for the occasional photo; formatting the SD card, and (once per year) changing the year in the EXIF copyright info. Everything else, I do with the external controls, or in post-processing. To me, for my purposes, it's much like using my film rangefinders, but with (if anything) less fuss through using auto-ISO (set up the way I like it).

So in some ways, I can't say I care all that much about 'minimalist' versus 'maximalist' feature-lists: I'll use the ones I like and ignore the rest. Sure (maybe) price: but if we're talking Leica cameras then price-differences are mostly at the margins.

But I know others feel differently. For example, I know the additional thickness of the M typ 240 was a deal-breaker for some people - while I barely notice(d) it. Others had problems with other things - and even the very presence of other things - and that's OK. I can only approve if Leica produces cameras which suit other people, even if they don't suit me, or I don't care one way or the other.

I have (semi-)seriously thought about an M11 or M11M - but probably won't go that way. Mostly because my current camera suits me fine for everything I want to do (if others want or need other things, that's fine by me). The one thing that might make me reject M11ish cameras is the change to the shutter arrangements compared to earlier models. My initial reaction was "hell no!" But on reflection, I could probably get used to it.

Honestly, as long as Leica sticks with (a) manually focused, optical 'viewfinders combined with a lens-coupled "split-image and double image rangefinders" with illuminated, parallax-corrected, brightline framelines'; and (b) retains it's 'M3ish' (for some value of 'ish') form-factor, then I will still be on-board with Leica M cameras. Those are my real deal-breakers. They can make changes elsewhere which I'll at least consider.

   ...Mike

Edited September 27 by mfunnell
minor wording change to remove redundancy

[Kwesi]

In reading your statement above I realise that the reason why it’s so easy to forget that the M has features you don’t use is that the M has very few buttons that aren’t essential. So there’s no visual clutter reminding you of complications that you personally don’t need. 
I think what the OP wants is a very simplified M that has no options really like a film MP. In my opinion that’s a hard sell given that even the most advanced M can be operated like a film MP very easily. 

[evikne]

26 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

In my opinion that’s a hard sell given that even the most advanced M can be operated like a film MP very easily.

You can also very easily convert a color image to black and white, and you can force yourself not to look at the screen and pretend it's not there. But still, Leica made a digital black and white camera and one without a screen. So I really hope they continue to think along these lines for those of us who only want the bare essentials.

Edited September 27 by evikne

[mfunnell]

4 minutes ago, evikne said:

You can also very easily convert a color image to black and white, and you can force yourself not to look at the screen and pretend it's not there. But still, Leica made a digital black and white camera and one without a screen. So I really hope they continue to think along these lines for those of us who only want the bare essentials.

Indeed you can easily convert from colour digital to black and white. I've been experimenting with just exactly that: to check out and beef-up my monochrome conversion skills and to find out if I can deliberately look for black and white photos, despite knowing my camera is designed for colour. While I'm not sure about my mono-conversion skills (a work in progress), after a month I've found myself working into the opposite problem: I caught myself nearly not taking a colour photo because I thought it wouldn't convert well to black and white! Whoops!! While I do want to make sure I really can 'see in black and white' I equally don't want to reject colour 🤔🙄

   ...Mike

P.S. You can find my conversion experiments (should you wish to bore yourself) at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mfunnell/albums/72177720310881541 (note: some are taken with my M240 but many are with off-brand cameras because I don't want to bounce an RF camera in the bottom of my bicycle pannier).

 

[Ray lee]

17小時前，IkarusJohn說：

我理解這一點，但就像M（240）一樣，我認為這是一個錯誤的轉折——太多的MP（完全沒有必要）；並進入永久實時檢視。 這些中沒有其他可以定製。 M11表明了一次轉變，也許轉向了更年輕的人群，但從我的角度來看，這不是一件好事。

自從M11首次打破封面以來，您關於像M10一樣使用M11的評論就已經發表了，但這只是圖片的一部分。 如果您接受徠卡長期以來的攝影方法，新增USB-C充電，改進WiFi（他們真的改進了嗎？），更新處理器和包括內部記憶體都是受歡迎的。 其餘的看起來像M9上的“快照”模式——完全沒有必要。

我真正喜歡的是只有DNG檔案（像我的Monochrom），原始直方圖，40MP或更少，以及M11的其他改進都沒有。 由於徠卡剛剛停止生產基於M10的相機，實際上沒有理由不能做到這一點。 我明白徠卡更希望每個人都購買新的M11正規化，但一直有變體......

ㄋ你

[dpitt]

15 hours ago, Makage said:

since they all get their sensors from Sony they’ll all be based on this. Nikon, Leica, Sony. All of them. In fact the raw files from all those cameras, after some editing, will look nearly identical. 

Interesting statement. I just recently had the opportunity to compare DNG files straight out of Panasonic S and Leica SL camera's. I can assure you, it was not hard to see the difference, and it was very hard (IMO impossible) to make them look the same.

The sensors might be produced by Sony, but at least the filter glass on top is not the same at all, and I seriously doubt the sensors are 100% the same. I have worked on production lines (mainly food industry) and saw 'the same products' produced on the same line. Then wrapped for different shops/brands and sold at different prices...Guess what... Their recipes were not the same, ever. Being produced by Sony means nothing in itself. Leica outsourced production of lenses to Minolta, and Minolta produced some rebranded Leica designs as Minolta lenses. Their results are similar but not the same....

I suspect it is the same as with cars today. Some parts are shared, other parts just look the same but have different tolerances and other specs, and in the end you have a completely different car and performance. (and price)

[Makage]

52 minutes ago, dpitt said:

Interesting statement. I just recently had the opportunity to compare DNG files straight out of Panasonic S and Leica SL camera's. I can assure you, it was not hard to see the difference, and it was very hard (IMO impossible) to make them look the same.

The sensors might be produced by Sony, but at least the filter glass on top is not the same at all, and I seriously doubt the sensors are 100% the same. I have worked on production lines (mainly food industry) and saw 'the same products' produced on the same line. Then wrapped for different shops/brands and sold at different prices...Guess what... Their recipes were not the same, ever. Being produced by Sony means nothing in itself. Leica outsourced production of lenses to Minolta, and Minolta produced some rebranded Leica designs as Minolta lenses. Their results are similar but not the same....

I suspect it is the same as with cars today. Some parts are shared, other parts just look the same but have different tolerances and other specs, and in the end you have a completely different car and performance. (and price)

My comment comes from seeing a folder of A7RIV files and M11 files (all raw) opening them myself and comparing them. I’m just talking about the M. 

I don’t know who makes the LUMIX S sensor. They’ve said before (for the GH6 at least) that it isn’t Sony. But I’m not sure what’s inside the S. Haven’t seen anything to confirm it. 

What I do know is the A7RIV and the M11 have the same sensor and looking at their RAW files side by side they’re nearly identical (both shot with the 50 Summilux). 

This video has a link to all the raw files used. Just reset them when you open them. You really have to pull out a microscope to see a difference. 

Watch the video and try to guess just looking at those files is the Leica A or B. 

As he says the main difference is the M lenses work better (their IQ from wide open) on the Leica where the corners wide open sort of fall apart on the Sony sensor. 

Im not saying Leica doesn’t alter the sensor. They do. I’m just saying the resulting images are basically identical besides the lenses performing better on the Leica. 
 

Other tests say the Leica M11 really pulled it off because the Sensor is more “accurate” and provides more accurate colors than the M10R or the M10P. But providing accurate colors was never the aim. Just like the aim of Kodachrome wasn’t ro give accurate colors. It had a certain “look” different from Kodak gold or Ektachrome. They’re not giving you “accurate colors”. 

The “look” is gone in favor of a more generic “accurate” look. It’s bound to happen when they all get the same sensor. Everything just starts blending together.  

Edited September 27 by Makage

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[IkarusJohn]

Not sure what all that has to do with the concept above.  I didn’t watch the video, as I have zero interest in Sonys, and the whole Sony A7 with M lenses issue was done years ago.  I had an A7r when it came out, and it was soon very clear that the Sony only played nice(ish) with telecentric lenses; any Leica lens with a sniff of wide to it had smeary edges on the Sony, particularly at infinity.

Edited September 27 by IkarusJohn