M11-S?

[IkarusJohn]

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In the past, Leica has released “simplified” M cameras alongside their more advanced release - we had the M-E, based on the M9, the M-D, without a screen, and the M(262), based on the M(240).  The first was a cheaper, CCD based camera sold for a while after the M(240) release, the M-D and M(262) were CMOS based cameras without video or live view.

The M10 was effectively a return to the M9 style of camera, slimmer with a new rangefinder and shutter and newer electronics - no video, but with live view and WiFi.  Alongside the M10, Leica also released the M10-D.

The challenge for Leica is, will they produce an M11-S, for simplified, with a return to the relativel simplicity of the M10 based cameras:

• no video
• return to centre-weighted metering off the shutter without live view metering
• no pixel binning
• no crop modes
• larger internal memory

This would be the M11 body (and sensor, if the 40MP sensor of the M10-R and M10-M are no longer available) with the larger battery, USB-C charging and WiFi (which works), but with the functionality and simplicity of the M10-P.

Such a camera might also drive M11 sales, while solving some of the teething problems the M11 camera owners have been  enduring so far.  Speaking for myself, I am invested in M lenses and it is a system I love.  But, I prefer the simplicity of my Monochrom and M10-D to the current M digital offerings.  I won’t be going down the M11 route as it stands.

My existing cameras haven’t stopped working just because Leica has released a camera I’m not interested in.  But I would like think there is a future for my with a digital M.  I’m already selling off my L mount gear.

Edited September 24 by IkarusJohn

[jaapv]

Or a 24MP sensor - I still maintain that is the sweet spot. The camera you propose might be a threat to my bank balance.

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[newtoleica]

Likewise, happy with my M10-P (and had an M10-D but found a bit too restrictive as I have an M7 for ‘that’) but looking at the potential unreliability of the M8/M9 now after so many years it would be good to have continuation of the ‘film M with a sensor’ approach, and I agree it’s more than just taking off the LCD (in fact that’s somewhat a side issue), it’s the approach to a camera that you only need the physical controls that Ms have always had to use reliably  (plus ISO). The M10-D was a bit of a disappointment with its faux wind on lever and on/off switch awkwardly on the rear with the Wi-Fi. The M11 doesn’t appeal. I don’t need fancy metering modes, 60MP etc, but I do want a nice quiet click for the shutter…..

Edited September 24 by newtoleica

[IkarusJohn]

24 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

Likewise, happy with my M10-P (and had an M10-D but found a bit too restrictive as I have an M7 for ‘that’) but looking at the potential unreliability of the M8/M9 now after so many years it would be good to have continuation of the ‘film M with a sensor’ approach, and I agree it’s more than just taking off the LCD (in fact that’s somewhat a side issue), it’s the approach to a camera that you only need the physical controls that Ms have always had to use reliably  (plus ISO). The M10-D was a bit of a disappointment with its faux wind on lever and on/off switch awkwardly on the rear with the Wi-Fi. The M11 doesn’t appeal. I don’t need fancy metering modes, 60MP etc, but I do want a nice quiet click for the shutter…..

I agree the switch on the back of the M10-D is a bit awkward.  I’d prefer the traditional collar around the shutter release.  At first, I thought the thumb rest/faux wind on was a dumb idea.  But, once I got over the idea of “faux winder”, as it has nothing to do with winding anything, I like it as a thumb rest.

But these are small issues.  I like the updated M9 idea - that’s really what the M10 was.

[Nitnaros]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

• no video
• return to centre-weighted metering off the shutter without live view metering
• no pixel binning
• no crop modes
• larger internal memory

This would be the M11 body (and sensor, if the 40MP sensor of the M10-R and M10-M are no longer available) with the larger battery, USB-C charging and WiFi (which works), but with the functionality and simplicity of the M10-P.

Hi IkarusJohn,

so the M11 has already no video ; and the metering accuracy has been significantly improved with the M11 compared to the M10; pixel binning is effective if you dont need 60 megapixels, so its useful functionality for a 60 MP sensor.

In my opinion, those changes would not make the M11 more attractive; it would reduce its benefits over the M10 significantly. So then why not stick with the M10 or M10-P if one feels the  M11 has too much technology? I appreciate all of these M11 upgrades. The one thing missing for me  for a 60 MP sensor camera is IBIS. So I would like to see an *additional* technology packed into the M body ...

 

bye, Peter

[IkarusJohn]

3 minutes ago, Nitnaros said:

So then why not stick with the M10 or M10-P if one feels the  M11 has too much technology?

No doubt the M11, and soon to be released M11-P (the camera the M11 should have been, if history is anything to go by), will suit many people.

It’s not that the M11 has too much technology, but that it has a whole lot of stuff that departs from the M paradigm.  It’s never been a case of what is possible, but what is needed, or even wanted.  In the film era, the Pentax Spotmatic introduced through the lens metering in 1960, yet Leica’s first M with a meter was the M5 in 1971 - that prompted the return to the M-4 and no meter in an M camera until the M6 in 1984.  Leica still issues an M camera with a cloth shutter and no meter (the M-A).

At the moment, Leica offers only two digital M cameras - the M11 and the M11-M, with 60MP; metering off the sensor; pixel binning; and cropping in camera, much of which is undesirable and unnecessary for many who love the M system for its direct simplicity.  As you say, you can turn all that off (apart from 60MP and the metering); however, the issue is where the M11 indicates the future digital M system is heading.

I won’t need a new M digital until my existing cameras can no longer be repaired.  But, I would like to see Leica release an updated M9 or M10, with nothing more.  Too much technology?  No, there’s a lot of technology in making such a stripped down camera work perfectly.

[jakontil]

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7 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

In the past, Leica has released “simplified” M cameras alongside their more advanced release - we had the M-E, based on the M9, the M-D, without a screen, and the M(262), based on the M(240).  The first was a cheaper, CCD based camera sold for a while after the M(240) release, the M-D and M(262) were CMOS based cameras without video or live view.

The M10 was effectively a return to the M9 style of camera, slimmer with a new rangefinder and shutter and newer electronics - no video, but with live view and WiFi.  Alongside the M10, Leica also released the M10-D.

The challenge for Leica is, will they produce an M11-S, for simplified, with a return to the relativel simplicity of the M10 based cameras:

• no video
• return to centre-weighted metering off the shutter without live view metering
• no pixel binning
• no crop modes
• larger internal memory

This would be the M11 body (and sensor, if the 40MP sensor of the M10-R and M10-M are no longer available) with the larger battery, USB-C charging and WiFi (which works), but with the functionality and simplicity of the M10-P.

Such a camera might also drive M11 sales, while solving some of the teething problems the M11 camera owners have been  enduring so far.  Speaking for myself, I am invested in M lenses and it is a system I love.  But, I prefer the simplicity of my Monochrom and M10-D to the current M digital offerings.  I won’t be going down the M11 route as it stands.

My existing cameras haven’t stopped working just because Leica has released a camera I’m not interested in.  But I would like think there is a future for my with a digital M.  I’m already selling off my L mount gear.

I’d definitely take if such camera exist.. i have been using my m11 in conjunction with my M10 r, the latter was kept solely because aesthetically black paint, otherwise I would have been safe with the m10D and safari which i sold previously 

m11 have been overkill in feature wise to my usage, but i dont deny it some of its improved specs like battery life, usb c, wifi and bluetooth connectivity have been useful to me, so m10 and slapped with those? Im on it!

[thrid]

A lower cost model would be nice. 

I'm just not sure how Leica would accomplish that without moving production out of Germany, since they have already dropped video etc.

36MP would be fine. I think of it as 24MP with a little room to crop if you need to. People seemed pretty content with the 40MP in the M10-R.

I'm not sure if the 60MP M11 sensor is a custom chip or from Sony etc? If it's a custom chip then a new resolution sensor would not be cheap. Maybe Leica could go with a high end off the shelf sensor from Sony etc? Are they still using micro lenses on their receptors or need some other special sauce to make it work with their lenses?

Made in Portugal? Fine by me, as long as it works.

Stamped brass top plate like the old film bodies? Frankly I wouldn't care if the shell and body parts were made somewhere cheaper than Germany.

I'm reluctant to say less weather sealing since it's basically a computer with a lens mount...

Not an easy problem to solve, unless you move the production to a cheaper location. Production costs in Germany have gone through the roof in recent years do to many poor policy decisions.

Edited September 25 by thrid

[lct]

12 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

[...] At the moment, Leica offers only two digital M cameras - the M11 and the M11-M [...]

Are you sure the M10 is discontinued? Just asking as it is still listed on the Leica site.

[IkarusJohn]

17 minutes ago, lct said:

Are you sure the M10 is discontinued? Just asking as it is still listed on the Leica site.

Only the M10-R on B&H, and I would suggest only for now …

[ianforber]

15 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

 

• no video
• return to centre-weighted metering off the shutter without live view metering
• no pixel binning
• no crop modes
• larger internal memory

 

To be a devil’s advocate. How close can we get to this with the current camera? There is no video and if you use 60 MP there won’t be any pixel binning and you don’t need to use the crop modes anyway. There’s no metering off a shutter but you can choose centre weighted metering and there’s no need to use the rear screen. I know many don’t like the sound of the M11 shutter though and the internal memory is a good idea but, let’s face it, we will all want it to be bigger regardless of how big it gets!

[newtoleica]

13 minutes ago, ianforber said:

There’s no metering off a shutter but you can choose centre weighted metering and there’s no need to use the rear screen. I know many don’t like the sound of the M11 shutter

This! - I don't use the LV on the M10-P except very very occasionally for astrophotography and I certainly would not use it on the street. Without LV the M10-P makes a discrete dull click, very similar to my M7. The shutter sound was one of the huge improvements over the M9 for street photography. The loss of off the shutter metering has left us with a complex of distracting and irritating clunks - both for the photographer and subjects. Bear in mind I shoot a lot in Budapest where taking pictures without consent is technically illegal.... So this is a red line for me. I'm fine with the M10-P but it does mean that there is currently no long term route forward for a usable M digital camera. I hope Leica can fix that. In future I may get a 10-P to put aside if I see a NIB one.

[mfunnell]

18 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

The loss of off the shutter metering has left us with a complex of distracting and irritating clunks - both for the photographer and subjects. Bear in mind I shoot a lot in Budapest where taking pictures without consent is technically illegal.... So this is a red line for me.

I wasn't aware of this. While I haven't been [I]seriously[/I] looking at the M11, I was idly considering an M11 Monochrome. I suspect this would be a deal-breaker for me as well. Bank balance saved 😁

   ...Mike

P.S. I'd more-or-less decided that my M typ 240 does all I want and need anyway (others might have different needs, of course).

[Photoworks]

17 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

no video

Yep, you got no video!

17 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

return to centre-weighted metering off the shutter without live view metering

You got Center-weighted metering of the sensor, but what you want is not coming back. It is dead since the company that made the sensor ( originally for the R8) is not making it anymore. And why should they engineer another camera that is less functional and less money, Leica does not do cheep well. 

17 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

no pixel binning

set it to 60MP and forget it. i have not changed it since I first got the camera.

 

17 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

no crop modes

Again, WHY? Just don't use it, it takes a few steps anyway. But don't you ever crop in post!

 

17 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

larger internal memory

That is probably coming anyway, they see people like it, and the M11M already has more.

They just have to fix the connectivity so that downloading the images is flawless.

[lct]

3 hours ago, ianforber said:

let’s face it, we will all want it to be bigger regardless of how big it gets!

Or let's face it another way, traditional M users want a film M with a sensor in lieu of the film so to speak. They don't need live view and 24mp is enough memory for them. Assuming the M10 will be discontinued, film Ms or the second hand market seem like the only solutions for them. This unless they do the mental effort to consider that the M11 can be used easily like a traditional M camera. Except for one thing though, the difficulty to shoot handheld at slow shutter speeds due to the lack of IBIS in the M11. Old timers like yours truly can live this well by settings shutter speeds to 1/(2f)s, but to each its own as usual.

Edited September 25 by lct

[charlesphoto99]

How about an M that starts/wakes up instantly? Now there's an idea...  

[fenykepesz]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb lct:

Or let's face it another way, traditional M users want a film M with a sensor in lieu of the film so to speak. They don't need live view and 24mp is enough memory for them. Assuming the M10 will be discontinued, film Ms or the second hand market seem like the only solutions for them. This unless they do the mental effort to consider that the M11 can be used easily like a traditional M camera. Except for one thing though, the difficulty to shoot handheld at slow shutter speeds due to the lack of IBIS in the M11. Old timers like yours truly can live this well by settings shutter speeds to 1/(2f)s, but to each its own as usual.

 

vor 8 Minuten schrieb charlesphoto99:

How about an M that starts/wakes up instantly? Now there's an idea...  

i can't agree more with your comments :  "M with a sensor in lieu of the film" , "shoot handheld at slow shutter speeds" , "M that starts/wakes up instantly" ! 

regarding the first comment, i generally prefer following the KISS philosophy, just to make my life simpler.

and regarding the last point, my M10-D's slow wake-up time of >1.5sec feels like an eternity in moments such as this one while watching my daughter...

 

[Al Brown]

Darn, nobody wrote "no freezes".

[ianforber]

“ The loss of off the shutter metering has left us with a complex of distracting and irritating clunks - both for the photographer and subjects.”

I haven’t used an M10 or earlier so can’t make an informed comment. However, I have had an M10 user comment about how quiet my M11 was. They were standing about 6 feet away so I wonder whether the noise is perceived as louder than it is simply because we have our ear pressed against the camera! Of course, there’s alway the electronic shutter which is completely silent but would be useful only in static/slow moving situations. 

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[newtoleica]

6 minutes ago, ianforber said:

“ The loss of off the shutter metering has left us with a complex of distracting and irritating clunks - both for the photographer and subjects.”

I haven’t used an M10 or earlier so can’t make an informed comment. However, I have had an M10 user comment about how quiet my M11 was. They were standing about 6 feet away so I wonder whether the noise is perceived as louder than it is simply because we have our ear pressed against the camera! Of course, there’s alway the electronic shutter which is completely silent but would be useful only in static/slow moving situations. 

Trust me. I've tried an M11 in a Leica store. Completely different sound. its not just the volume but the 'click' v 'cliikkphhhclick' I found it very irritating. It's similar but a bit higher pitch to the M10-P on LV mode. Even IF subjects didn't hear it, it disturbed my 'mental focus'. electronic shutter - yep useless for street. The M10-P is a perfect tool for street photography. Quiet, discrete, absorbing of concentration. Very Zen.