Leica II Model D, FILCA, Delta 400 - lost frames at end of roll

[LocalHero1953]

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I have just developed two rolls of Delta 400 and both had a strip of blank (unexposed) frames at the end of the roll: perhaps 7 frames in one case and 10-12 in the other. Far too many to be caused by forgetting to remove the lens cap! In any case, the images at the end of one roll continue into the next - I'd changed rolls on the go. All other frames in the strip were exposed and spaced normally

In both cases, the film was bulk loaded into FILCA cartridges to get around 36 frames per roll, and exposed in a Leica II Model D (serviced last year). I'm a bit careless about setting the counter to zero, so I rewound the film when I felt resistance to winding on, without noting the counter.

Before seeing the problem, I had already loaded the camera with another cartridge (I don't know if it is a FILCA or IXMOO - I have both), but had not exposed any frames. I wound on the whole film, triggering the shutter with the lens cap on. I noticed resistance after a half wind-on at around the 30 exposure mark, which previously would have resulted in me rewinding, but after releasing the shutter I was able to wind further without problems to around 37 exposures, when I reached a full stop.

The possibilities I can think of:

• The film in a nearly full take-up spool rubbing against the inside of the cavity? Is Delta 400 a thicker film than the films that would have been around when that Leica was made? But I haven't had this problem with previous films.
• The FILCA not opening properly, so that resistance increases as the film unwinds towards the spool spindle? I'd expect this to be progressive, rather than a sudden resistance. 

My next step could be to remove the current film, and check the wind on behaviour with no film, and to check if the FILCA is opening properly. (The only way I can think of doing the latter is by feeling the resistance when turning the baseplate lock with and without a cartridge inserted).

Does anyone have any other ideas of what could be happening? Or what else I could try to identify a cause?

Edited August 15, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[PCPix]

I’ve not heard of the film being thicker before (thinner - yes: with the 72-exposure Ilford films of the 80’s).
 

It does sound like the take up side of the camera is ‘full’. As an idea, perhaps get a shop-bought roll of the same film and see if it does the same? If it does, it’s thick film, if it doesn’t… must be the reloadable cassette, or even something else?
 

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[LocalHero1953]

5 hours ago, PCPix said:

I’ve not heard of the film being thicker before (thinner - yes: with the 72-exposure Ilford films of the 80’s).
 

It does sound like the take up side of the camera is ‘full’. As an idea, perhaps get a shop-bought roll of the same film and see if it does the same? If it does, it’s thick film, if it doesn’t… must be the reloadable cassette, or even something else?
 

Thank you.  My bulk roll films shouldn't give me more than a shop-bought film - if anything I roll slightly short. 

But anyway, I have sacrificial roll of XP2. I removed the cartridge that was in the camera, and loaded the XP2. It ran through to 36 exposures with no problems.

I tried no film at all - the camera wound on well beyond 36 without sign of constraint.

I tried the camera with and without a FILCA and I am confident I can feel when it is opening compared to when there is nothing, so I don't think the problem is the FILCA not opening.

Unless anyone has any other suggestions I shall just see how the next roll pans out, and keep better track of how many exposures I have made.

[Pyrogallol]

Have you used the same cassette in that camera before? I find that some cameras do not like some FILCA cassettes. I am using one at the moment that is ok in some cameras but not in others. I should not have used it in the present model 111 as it is very tight winding on and I am unwinding the rewind knob as I wind on to loosen the film enough to move forward. When I have finished the film I must add this camera body to the list in the cassette can that notes which bodies it is or is not ok in.

I have always loaded 30 exposures in a cassette as it loads easier in a Paterson spiral than 36.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Pyrogallol

[LocalHero1953]

9 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

Have you used the same cassette in that camera before? I find that some cameras do not like some FILCA cassettes. I am using one at the moment that is ok in some cameras but not in others. I should not have used it in the present model 111 as it is very tight winding on and I am unwinding the rewind knob as I wind on to loosen the film enough to move forward. When I have finished the film I must add this camera body to the list in the cassette can that notes which bodies it is or is not ok in.

I have always loaded 30 exposures in a cassette as it loads easier in a Paterson spiral than 36.

Sensible idea (to track cassettes)! It only occurred to me after using half a dozen of them. The are now all numbered, and I don't think these have been used before.

My cassettes came from a number of ebay sources, and about 4 arrived with bent springs (in larger collections, at a good price, so I didn't want to return them). I have had no problems with those I have used so far, other than occasional light leaks on the edge of the perforations, which have no effect on the exposures. I'll load them in deeper shade next time though.

[250swb]

Films getting tighter at the end of a roll is something that typically happens to medium format cameras if it hasn't been loaded properly (but can happen in 35mm cameras) and it's called a 'fat roll'. So in medium format you load a roll and don't keep the backing paper tight before closing the back. As soon as the back is closed that loose backing paper never gets the chance to tighten so it loosely bunches up increasing the diameter of the roll, eventually the camera 'thinks' that the roll is fully exposed before it gets to the end (or you get horrible graunching sounds). In 35mm the film advance lever or knob works alongside the sprocket teeth to advance the film, the teeth don't exactly push the film but keep it taught. So if you put the baseplate on or close the back (and engage the sprocket teeth) and have too much loose film to the right of the sprocket teeth it's possible for the shutter to be cocked before the loose or looped film is wound tight and that is where the fat roll begins. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by 250swb

[LocalHero1953]

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8 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Films getting tighter at the end of a roll is something that typically happens to medium format cameras if it hasn't been loaded properly (but can happen in 35mm cameras) and it's called a 'fat roll'. So in medium format you load a roll and don't keep the backing paper tight before closing the back. As soon as the back is closed that loose backing paper never gets the chance to tighten so it loosely bunches up increasing the diameter of the roll, eventually the camera 'thinks' that the roll is fully exposed before it gets to the end (or you get horrible graunching sounds). In 35mm the film advance lever or knob works alongside the sprocket teeth to advance the film, the teeth don't exactly push the film but keep it taught. So if you put the baseplate on or close the back (and engage the sprocket teeth) and have too much loose film to the right of the sprocket teeth it's possible for the shutter to be cocked before the loose film is wound tight and that is where the fat roll begins. 

Thank you - it could be the answer. I shall watch for this next time I load. I have occasionally noticed a regular 'stiff point' while rewinding (perhaps every turn), which could be a reflection of the same thing.

Thinking it through, a precaution after loading might be to set the lever to rewind and carefully turn the rewind knob until I feel tension (trying not to pull the leader from the take-up spool? 

Edited August 16, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[PCPix]

On 8/16/2023 at 8:42 AM, 250swb said:

too much loose film to the right of the sprocket teeth it's possible for the shutter to be cocked before the loose or looped film is wound tight and that is where the fat roll begins.

Don’t all 35mm cameras turn the take-up spool faster than is necessary to take up this slack, then simply using the built in ‘slippage’ to keep the film under tension once any slack is taken up?

When rewinding, the only thing that is disengaged is the toothed sprocket roller - as you rewind you’re pulling against that very same ‘slippage’. 

My description may be a bit random, but I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a clutch, more a ‘steady friction’, so back onto topic, not sure ‘fat roll’, as found in medium format, is really possible in a 35mm camera?

Not really helping to solve LocalHero’s original problem though!

[250swb]

2 hours ago, PCPix said:

Don’t all 35mm cameras turn the take-up spool faster than is necessary to take up this slack, then simply using the built in ‘slippage’ to keep the film under tension once any slack is taken up?

 

Most cameras cock the shutter when you turn the knob or advance the lever, where is the leeway to take up 'slippage'. 

[PCPix]

13 hours ago, 250swb said:

Most cameras cock the shutter when you turn the knob or advance the lever, where is the leeway to take up 'slippage'. 

Yes - you are of course correct, the advance knob/lever is directly moving the sprockets and cocking the shutter without any slippage. However the take-up spool turns slightly more than is required so that it can take up any slack film between the sprockets and the take-up spool.  Once any slack is taken up, the built-in slippage (only of the take-up spool) keeps the roll of exposed film under gentle tension and neatly spooled as the film accumulates through the whole roll (no MF ‘fat roll’)
 

With Leica rangefinder film cameras it’s difficult to see how this works because all this is going on inside the metal of the bodywork, but if you look in any regular hinged back Nikon/Canon/Pentax, put some pressure on the take-up spool with your thumb as you advance the shutter and you’ll find it can actually be stopped and you can feel the slippage. You could also deliberately introduce some slack at the beginning of a roll of film and watch it get taken up on the first movement of the advance lever, because the take-up spool is geared to turn more than is actually needed and as soon as the slack is taken up, the slippage comes into play. 

I don’t have an older Leica body at present to double check, but I’m sure the slippage  occurs between the take-up spool and the shaft it gets pushed onto. 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by PCPix

[jerzy]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb PCPix:

slippage  occurs between the take-up spool and the shaft it gets pushed onto.

yes, it is there. Sprocket wheels are directly connected (gears) with the wind knob, there is no slippage there, distance betweeen frames is fixed. It is IIIf but in this aspect the II is almost identical. Slippage occurs where orange arrow points. To certain degree it may be adjusted by how deep the sleeve (blue) is screwed on (spring). Btw - this is wind axis of an early III, below 156xxx - it will not accept SCNOO.

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