50 mm Shopping: Where to Start Research?

[Jeff S]

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5 hours ago, hansvons said:

I never understood why flares are seen as an “issue”.

In cinematography, flares are recognised as a virtue. The question is how they look and how easily they can be provoked, or not. When I become interested in a particular lens, its flares and how it renders faces are on the top of the list. And, of course, sharp corners @f5,6 at infinity are important, too. 

The v4 does all of that. And the flares need to be provoked. The lens is not prone to flaring. And when they appear, they look gorgeous.

IMO means “in my opinion.”  Preferences and styles vary in photography.  I’m also not a cinematographer. FWIW, the flare characteristics of my 50 Summicron did not prompt its sale; it was just an “issue” that required my close attention.  I prefer the 50 Summilux ASPH for a number of reasons. It can flare, too, but but can be used more freely for my needs and tastes.

Jeff

[Pyrogallol]

As far as lens weight is concerned I would always hold my hand under the camera and partly under the lens taking the weight of both, I would not let the camera dangle on the neckstrap. Also I was always told to point the camera slightly down to avoid pointing the shutter blinds at the sun.

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[BradS]

On 8/9/2023 at 12:46 AM, hansvons said:

I never understood why flares are seen as an “issue”.

In cinematography, flares are recognised as a virtue. The question is how they look and how easily they can be provoked, or not. When I become interested in a particular lens, its flares and how it renders faces are on the top of the list. And, of course, sharp corners @f5,6 at infinity are important, too. 

The v4 does all of that. And the flares need to be provoked. The lens is not prone to flaring. And when they appear, they look gorgeous.

The v4 and v5 50mm Summicrons are very prone to very nasty flare in unexpected circumstances. The flare is totally unacceptable to me. Which is why I've stayed with the 50mm Planar ZM.

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, BradS said:

The v4 and v5 50mm Summicrons are very prone to very nasty flare in unexpected circumstances. The flare is totally unacceptable to me. Which is why I've stayed with the 50mm Planar ZM.

That's the power of diversity. I happily disagree with you

 

[Bobonli]

Regarding flare, I’ve seen many posts here and review videos on the YouTubes, that are equal parts “it’s a problem” and “I don’t have a problem at all.” So I interpret   that to mean it might be an issue depending on the situation and specimen. Not something that I would hinge my decision on. It goes into the decision tree nonetheless  

The comments and suggestions about ergonomics are somewhat funny to me. I appreciate the sentiment but from a practical standpoint there’s no way for me to try different models. At best maybe going into NYC for the day I might get to see 2-3 versions if I hit the right shops and find someone who even knows the differences. I’ll almost certainly be doing this sight unseen, over the internet. I’ve checked 4 places online, for example, and none list a V4 in stock. 

[Pyrogallol]

Is the V4 the version with plastic parts that break the lens in half, that I have read about in other places on the forum? If so then buy V3 or V5 ?

[RexGig0]

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Regarding flare, it has been my general practice, when flare could be a problem, to choose lenses accordingly. If using a Leica M camera, this has meant using a Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1,4 ZM, which is a wonderful lens, one of my top few favorite lenses, but, it is not 50mm. My Summilux-M 50mm ASPH is my most-favored M lens, and, I know that it can flare, most noticeably. Especially if the sun is at a cooperative angle, I can create flare, upon demand. I recently took delivery of my new Cosina Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar VM, and had some time to kill, at a nearby shopping center, between 8:00 and 9:00 AM, which was the perfect time to test for flare. Surely enough, I was able to make the Summilux show massive flare, then, quickly change lenses, and capture similar shots with the APO Lanthar, which showed almost no flare, in spite of the punishing conditions, which I had intentionally selected. (I did flub the vignetting aspect of the test shots, by forgetting to set the Menu’s lens detention to “off,” so, my M10 “remembered” to correct for the 21mm Elmarit, a setting I had previously used when test-shooting with a Zeiss lens. Flare, however, is independent of vignetting and color correction.)

I still love my Summilux-M 50mm ASPH. This was my first Leica M lens purchase, a decision made before I knew which would be my first M-mount camera body. The love has not diminished, after more than five years. I do, however, now have a 50mm M-mount lens that can perform reliably, at times when flare is undesirable. Perhaps, for example, I want to photograph a social occasion, on a sunny morning, in a situation in which I cannot control where people are positioned, but I want everyone to be clearly recognizable. APO Lanthar time! On the other hand, perhaps I want some flare, and can position the subjects where I want them, in relation to a morning or evening sun. That is time for the Summilux!

 

 

[lct]

14 hours ago, BradS said:

The v4 and v5 50mm Summicrons are very prone to very nasty flare in unexpected circumstances. The flare is totally unacceptable to me. Which is why I've stayed with the 50mm Planar ZM.

I like much the Planar 50/2 but it is not immune from flare to be honest. I can recreate the CVF (central veiling flare) of Summicron 50/2 v4 or v5 with it, but less easily. See below at f/16 with the sun outside the frame. Now flare is part of photography some photogs are able to play with superbly. I would take a Summicron 50/2 v3 for this preferably but it is just a guess from my part as flare is not my cup of tea really.

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[a.noctilux]

14 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

Is the V4 the version with plastic parts that break the lens in half, that I have read about in other places on the forum? If so then buy V3 or V5 ?

Maybe Summicron 35mm IV ? In this I agree.

Here we are talking about 50mm Summicron.

[BradS]

9 hours ago, lct said:

I like much the Planar 50/2 but it is not immune from flare to be honest. I can recreate the CVF (central veiling flare) of Summicron 50/2 v4 or v5 with it, but less easily. See below at f/16 with the sun outside the frame. Now flare is part of photography some photogs are able to play with superbly. I would take a Summicron 50/2 v3 for this preferably but it is just a guess from my part as flare is not my cup of tea really.

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Ooof. Flare is always awful. I think this is the worst I've seen from my Planar - and this is with a UV filter and no lens hood (note the orange triangular mess in grass)

 

Leica M6, Zeiss 50mm f/2 Planar ZM, Fuji Superia X-Tra 400

[lct]

You may wish to put the sun or other strong light sources just outside the frame. Another example with the Planar 50/2 here.

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[TAFFY]

On 8/10/2023 at 10:17 PM, BradS said:

The v4 and v5 50mm Summicrons are very prone to very nasty flare in unexpected circumstances. The flare is totally unacceptable to me. Which is why I've stayed with the 50mm Planar ZM.

+1 on the ZM Planar and the flare control.  

If you don't like flare or hoods, consider the Planar.  It is pretty light too and will set you back less vs the Summicrons.  I am sticking to the Planar as my versatile 50 while waiting to add the 50 Lux ASPH when the funds permit. 

[Bobonli]

I’ve read everything linked to in this thread. A lot of good info and images. I think my heart says v4 ‘Cron because of the image quality and I want the tab. My brain says the 1.5 Nokton II would be a worthy candidate too because of quality, size, price and availability. I can have that tomorrow from B&H if I wanted it.  
 

Finding a v4 Cron is not as easy as I thought it would be because some sellers either don’t mention the version or don’t post pictures. B&H for example uses the same pics for all their 50s and if you look closely you’ll see that the #s don’t match even within a set! Some sites list serial numbers so I guess I can cross reference those at some point. I’m seeing a lot of Luxes for sale but I don’t want a bigger lens, and would prefer not to spend the money on the aperture wars. 
 

All the replies here were very helpful. Thank you. 

[Jon Warwick]

On 8/9/2023 at 12:38 PM, lct said:

Different experience here. Problem with v4 and v5 are unexpected flares when strong light sources like the sun are outside the frame. It is not an issue in LV mode as flare is visible in the EVF or on the LCD then but newbies (even oldies?) car get trapped in RF mode by less-than-gorgeous flares like these:

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Certainly with my first v5, which I’d purchased new in 2002, I noted that I increasingly got that type of veiling flare in my photos on a regular basis (it looked similar to your first image ….a milky low contrast patch in the middle of the frame especially in cloudy conditions). I found such veiling flare made it a very frustrating lens to use so I sold it. I don’t know if it was connected, but the black coating (paint?) around the baffle of the rear element had started to flake off into very small pieces after about a decade. Just a gentle wipe would cause many small black fragments to come off on the cloth.

My latest v5, made just a few years ago, has de minimis flare in comparison. Still has a lot of field curvature compared to newer designed lenses, but I assume that was the intention of the v5.

I used to also own the M 50 APO, but now use the Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar. The Voigtlander is extraordinarily good in terms of both image and build quality on my M11 and M10M, and even more remarkable given the respective price vs the M 50 APO.
 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Jon Warwick

[Bobonli]

Apparently the v4 rarely comes up in the used market, or so says 4 reputable dealers I contacted. I'm not up for Craigs List or Ebay.

[lct]

13 minutes ago, Bobonli said:

Apparently the v4 rarely comes up in the used market, or so says 4 reputable dealers I contacted. I'm not up for Craigs List or Ebay.

There are reputed dealers on eBay. I buy exclusively from them with no problem whatsoever. BTW a dozen v4s seem available right now from well known dealers like Mintandrare and PhotoAlps in Europe.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=leica+11819&LH_PrefLoc=2&_fslt=1&LH_SellerType=2&_sop=16

[spydrxx]

37 minutes ago, Bobonli said:

Apparently the v4 rarely comes up in the used market, or so says 4 reputable dealers I contacted. I'm not up for Craigs List or Ebay.

About every two weeks or so another one pops up on the big auction site. Mostly from Japan or the UK.

[rustyrus]

On 8/3/2023 at 4:01 PM, Bobonli said:

As the subject suggests I'm starting my hunt for a 50. I have a 35 'Cron which I'm using with an M4-P. Very happy with that combo, want to add the 50 and be done.

Please point me to a source for concise, accurate summary of the different versions of the 50 so I can educate myself and make an informed purchase decision. I've started to watch a couple of YT videos, and they strike me as kind-of-blowhardy: people justifying their purchases. I want to know details about the different versions of the 'Cron and Lux....which ones are "great" which are "flops" etc. 

While we're at it, if anyone wants to suggest (by PM if you're more comfortable) reputable places to source a lens, I'd be very appreciative. I'm risk averse to buying sight unseen, yet that's really the only way I'd be able to purchase because the only brick and mortar shop near me that carries M hardware is B&H and I know they ask a premium. My current rig came from a big-name B&M shop that I'd dealt with years ago.....I'd go back to them if I had to but would like some other options. 

Thank you. 

Buy used here:

 

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/board/10

 

What you want will pop up eventually. 

[Bobonli]

I'm not doing the 'Bay or buying from Europe. I'm risk averse when it comes to buying things that are (a) expensive and (b) subject to debate regarding condition/function/defects. When things go sideways, I want to deal with a real human whom I can either visit in person or speak with on the phone. I'm old fashioned that way but I've had one thing go sideways and that was one-enough.

I may have to reconsider my attachment to the focusing tab.

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[Ouroboros]

I have a current version summicron safari edition.  Personally I think far too much is made of flare with this lens.  When you understand the lens and become experienced in using it flare is rarely a problem.  
Avoiding flare is intuitive in exactly the same way that avoiding burning holes in a cloth shutter is.  
You learn to instinctively work around it.

The 50mm summicron is a great lens in any of it’s versions.

That said, of the five 50mm lenses I have, my favourite is the ZM c-sonnar f1.5.
 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Ouroboros