M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[lct]

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20 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

[...] M enthusiasts are using their cameras at full throttle a lot of the time and noticing any shortcomings (something as a forum and a community we're rather good at actually 😅)

Indeed but Leica has acknowledged these shortcomings already. « We are aware the M11 (firmware 1.6) can freeze. Our developers are working on fixing the issue via a firmware update [...] », Leica said. Not sure how complaining again and again can help those developers. Would be more constructive to describe them the circumstances in which freezes still occur.

[Adam Bonn]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Indeed but Leica has acknowledged these shortcomings already. « We are aware the M11 (firmware 1.6) can freeze. Our developers are working on fixing the issue via a firmware update [...] », Leica said. Not sure how complaining again and again can help those developers. Would be more constructive to describe them the circumstances in which freezes still occur.

Good.

But my point is more this, comparing the M to a Ferrari or a Rolex and complaining about the M’s reliability is all good fun, but M cameras spend a damn sight more time being used to take photos using all the features and mechanisms that it has to take photos than submariners spend 300 metres under the sea or Ferraris spend being hammered round race tracks at (class) lap record pace. My hunch here is that if one used the luxury car/watch daily as designed then design flaws and longevity would be significantly highlighted and impacted.

(Equally of course if ones M spends its life hanging round your neck whilst one visits the trendiest restaurants and clubs and not really taking many photos then you’re probably not on this thread complaining about freezes, instead complimenting its coolness)

In short.. all the products are luxury tools but the M is a luxury tool that most (on here at least) buy for the tool aspect (or at least both) whereas the car, the watch not so much…

[Herr Barnack]

9 hours ago, M11 for me said:

...

And a last point. I am a Leica shooter and a Canon shooter. In 2021 I exchanged my 5D Mk IV to an R5. And in 2022 I exchanged my M10 to the M11. In both cases I paid a very similar price. How is this pissible? The Canon lost much more of its value than the Leica did. There is actually nothing to complain about.

At this point, it seems that the M11 is quite pissible.

I fervently hope it can be de-pissed.  Perhaps the P in the M11-P will indicate a new and improved pissless version.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Herr Barnack

[elmars]

Was there actually any bricking under firmware 1.6.0.0? I don't recall anything like that being reported, but haven't looked through everything here. If there is no more bricking, which was always related to freezes, the freezing has at least two different causes.

[hdmesa]

11 hours ago, SJH said:

Whilst I understand what you are endeavouring to articulate I think in the real world the M11 is actually both engineering and essentially ‘software’. I suspect the bodies and lenses are made to the highest possible tolerance for camera equipment but even global corporations, who spend billions on software, take out extensive support contracts because despite the expense the stuff still goes wrong.

For example Apple are generally considered to make the best notebook hardware but their MacBooks still freeze.

Equally, as referred to above, we really don’t know the scale of the issue e.g. one freeze in 6 months is no big deal but say 5 per week is. Surely though all western consumers buying £8k Leica’s know their rights? You buy an M11 from Leica, it keeps freezing as reported here, by probably a small minority, why don’t you just take it back and get it exchanged? My M11 has been flawless but just like anything else with software/firmware I except a percentage to go wrong. I like the way Matt Day sums it up in his video here:

 

Occasional freezing, not that bothered, gone really with 1.6 for him.

If it’s hardware well, in Europe & the US at least, that’s going to be a material issue for all the emplacements that Leica is going to have to fund, it could be armageddon for them. Reading between the lines I think Leica are accepting there are still some minor freezing issues with 1.6 but hopefully they’re on top of this and 1.7 will bring an end to 45 pages so far. As I said above out of my M10M, M10R and M11 the M11 has been the most reliable to use so far but that doesn’t diminish the fact that some people will have freezing issues but not quite the mass hysteria that’s been generated so far.

Buy an M11 from Leica, give it some use like any other hardware/software if it doesn’t perform to spec then return it and get a new one or a refund. In Europe you have a fundamental right to this as long as you can demonstrate the issue e.g. take a pic of the frozen camera screen with your iPhone, make notes of the date and time etc. Let’s also not forget that the M10 freezing posts went on for 5 years with the last in this forum in February 2022 but the consensus was it was a very reliable camera generally, with a few inevitable software issues here and there like any other high end product that has it.

It's all fine if it doesn't brick. Good for him that he's willing to risk that.

[Herr Barnack]

14 hours ago, SJH said:

Whilst I understand what you are endeavouring to articulate I think in the real world the M11 is actually both engineering and essentially ‘software’. I suspect the bodies and lenses are made to the highest possible tolerance for camera equipment but even global corporations, who spend billions on software, take out extensive support contracts because despite the expense the stuff still goes wrong.

For example Apple are generally considered to make the best notebook hardware but their MacBooks still freeze.

Equally, as referred to above,we really don’t know the scale of the issue e.g. one freeze in 6 months is no big deal but say 5 per week is. Surely though all western consumers buying £8k Leica’s know their rights? You buy an M11 from Leica, it keeps freezing as reported here, by probably a small minority, why don’t you just take it back and get it exchanged? My M11 has been flawless but just like anything else with software/firmware I except a percentage to go wrong. I like the way Matt Day sums it up in his video here:

 

Occasional freezing, not that bothered, gone really with 1.6 for him.

If it’s hardware well, in Europe & the US at least, that’s going to be a material issue for all the emplacements that Leica is going to have to fund, it could be armageddon for them. Reading between the lines I think Leica are accepting there are still some minor freezing issues with 1.6 but hopefully they’re on top of this and 1.7 will bring an end to 45 pages so far. As I said above out of my M10M, M10R and M11 the M11 has been the most reliable to use so far but that doesn’t diminish the fact that some people will have freezing issues but not quite the mass hysteria that’s been generated so far.

Buy an M11 from Leica, give it some use like any other hardware/software if it doesn’t perform to spec then return it and get a new one or a refund. In Europe you have a fundamental right to this as long as you can demonstrate the issue e.g. take a pic of the frozen camera screen with your iPhone, make notes of the date and time etc. Let’s also not forget that the M10 freezing posts went on for 5 years with the last in this forum in February 2022 but the consensus was it was a very reliable camera generally, with a few inevitable software issues here and there like any other high end product that has it.

 I am not yet an M11 owner but have been following the M11 lockup issue closely - when it comes to spending $9000 USDs, I'm a "look before you leap" kind of guy.   If I may ask a few questions without being berated for doing so -

1:  If the M11 lockups are due to defective hardware supplied to Leica by a vendor, can they be 100% resolved by a new firmware package?

2:  If not, will Leica have to take the cameras back under warranty and replace the defective hardware to resolve the lockups? 

3:  If #2 turns out to be the case, will this scenario be similar cost wise for Leica compared to replacing the M9 camera's corroded sensors?

4:  If #3 turns out to be the case, how much financial damage does Leica stand to incur?

5:  Are these lockups common with Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, etc. when a new camera is introduced?

Thanks in advance too one and all for any insight you may provide regarding my questions.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Herr Barnack

[Herr Barnack]

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8 minutes ago, jqian6 said:

nobody knows the answer to question 1.

So the rest of your questions are irrelevant.

Irrelevant?  Au contraire. 

My questions are relevant to those who have yet to purchase an M11 - and they are excruciatingly relevant to those unfortunate folk whose M11s lock up or go dead on them.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Herr Barnack

[hdmesa]

29 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

 I am not yet an M11 owner but have been following the M11 lockup issue closely - when it comes to spending $9000 USDs, I'm a "look before you leap" kind of guy.   If I may ask a few questions without being berated for doing so -

1:  If the M11 lockups are due to defective hardware supplied to Leica by a vendor, can they be 100% resolved by a new firmware package?

2:  If not, will Leica have to take the cameras back under warranty and replace the defective hardware to resolve the lockups? 

3:  If #2 turns out to be the case, will this scenario be similar cost wise for Leica compared to replacing the M9 camera's corroded sensors?

4:  If #3 turns out to be the case, how much financial damage does Leica stand to incur?

5:  Are these lockups common with Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, etc. when a new camera is introduced?

Thanks in advance too one and all for any insight you may provide regarding my questions.

1: We don't know for this specific case. Per another forum user's interaction with Leica, they are aware and working on it. Whether they succeed or not, we'll see. Hardware defects can sometimes be worked around or mitigated in firmware. Sometimes not.

2/3/4 all depend on 1

5: From experience with Canon, yes. The R5 in particular. Turned out to be bad main boards, so Canon was replacing the boards as needed. Getting your repair to the right agent/tech who knew about the issue and the proper resolution was another matter. Many were returned with no resolution, the typical Magic 8 Ball "Try again later". Manufactures tend to not publicly acknowledge defective batches of cameras, they just quietly fix or replace them as they are sent in under warranty or exchanged with the dealer. The only way we'll hear about this from Leica is if it affects all M11 (recall a-la M9) or if they can fix it in firmware.

Edited January 27, 2023 by hdmesa

[lct]

42 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

If the M11 lockups are due to defective hardware supplied to Leica by a vendor, can they be 100% resolved by a new firmware package?

 

Just kidding

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I am not yet an M11 owner but have been following the M11 lockup issue closely - when it comes to spending $9000 USDs, I'm a "look before you leap" kind of guy.   If I may ask a few questions without being berated for doing so -

Shoo, shoo, go away ... 😉

3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

1:  If the M11 lockups are due to defective hardware supplied to Leica by a vendor, can they be 100% resolved by a new firmware package?

Nobody know if defective hardware is the culprit, or if a defective hardware could be "fixed" by a firmware update.

3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

2:  If not, will Leica have to take the cameras back under warranty and replace the defective hardware to resolve the lockups? 

If something cannot be fixed with firmware, likely the cameras need to be sent to Leica to be fixed (M9 sensor, X1D wheels, etc.).

3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

3:  If #2 turns out to be the case, will this scenario be similar cost wise for Leica compared to replacing the M9 camera's corroded sensors?

I expect it to be free as with my X1D.

3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

4:  If #3 turns out to be the case, how much financial damage does Leica stand to incur?

EUR 450,321.35

3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Are these lockups common with Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, etc. when a new camera is introduced?

Some Fuji GFXs froze with mechanical shutter and some X1Ds had malfunctioning buttons. Those cameras needed to be sent back to the factory to be fixed.

Find a dealer where you can return your M11 if you are not happy with it. If your M11 works fine, like most, keep it. If it doesn't return it and wait.

[Adam Bonn]

21 hours ago, jaapv said:

Plenty of those 100 shot users  But the key word you use is enthusiast. I think that is far more appropriate don’t you think. Maybe Morgan is the better comparison. I drove one as main car for decades. 

Yeah as a secondhand buyer I love those users

Morgan would be a far better example, low volume and niche. Most countries have far more high end watch stores and top end car dealerships than Leica boutiques 

For example here in this city I know of 3 top end car stores and at least half a dozen places where watches cost as much as Leicas. We have a Leica boutique too, but AFAIK it’s the only one in the whole country (and if I’m wrong there’s maybe one more hundreds of kilometres away)

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

If something cannot be fixed with firmware, likely the cameras need to be sent to Leica to be fixed (M9 sensor, X1D wheels, etc.).

9 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

etc =. M8 missing mass contact, 2007 bad batch of transistors  S series shutters.  

6 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

Yeah as a secondhand buyer I love those users

Morgan would be a far better example, low volume and niche. Most countries have far more high end watch stores and top end car dealerships than Leica boutiques 

 

My 4/4 had upholstery nails driven through electrical wires. causing interesting showers of sparks whilst driving. 

[Adam Bonn]

27 minutes ago, jaapv said:

My 4/4 had upholstery nails driven through electrical wires. causing interesting showers of sparks whilst driving. 

The marketing could of been

There’s nothing more electrifying than the feeling of driving a Morgan 😅

[jaapv]

😂🙃

[jaapv]

If you drive British sports cars, you get used to the smell of burning insulation.

[Herr Barnack]

Given the above, I'm glad as hell that the people who make British sports cars do not make Leica cameras.  😳

Edited January 27, 2023 by Herr Barnack

[SrMi]

Should we add a car sub-forum, maybe under Barnack's Bar?

😉

[T25UFO]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

If you drive British sports cars, you get used to the smell of burning insulation.

Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious

But I've owned several and they are, by some measure, the best driver's cars.  And I'm including Porsche and Ferrari in that comparison.

[T25UFO]

T25 UFO owned and driven by T25UFO 🙂 Now sadly sold 🙁

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[setuporg]

I'd forget about cameras and drive this thing around all day:)