Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[250swb]

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7 hours ago, logan2z said:

In that launch-time video for the new M6 by Hugh Jackman (or whatever his name is), the Leica Marketing Director brought up the fact that Jackman's DOA M11 was incorrectly placed in the 'slow as molasses' queue when it should have been put in the 'sh*t we screwed up' queue.

I could imagine somebody at Leica (following the example of W C Fields) putting a sign on the front door saying 'Closed on account of molasses'.

(reference to 'It's a Gift' 1934 in which W C Fields is a general store owner)

 

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[Kiwimac]

I am reminded of a Carlsberg advert that used to run in the UK a long time ago. This is how we fondly imagine Leica to be - but the increasing reality seems to be that it is not, sadly.

 

[Fotoklaus]

Am 23.12.2022 um 13:50 schrieb JerryYordy:

I bought an MP from Leica America in June.  Had problems with dark band on one side or no exposure at all. Turns out the shutter did not open at 1/500 and 1/1000 and sometimes was slow to open at 1/250.  I returned it to NJ in September.  It took 12 weeks to be returned.  Even though it was defective as sold by Leica, it was placed at the end of the queue.  I don’t know what the quality control function does other than sign a card.

Sometimes I think they where surprised by the rennaisance of their own film cameras and missed the link between the old days technicians and the

new demand after mechanical cameras.

The shutter is the same since the first M3. Adjusting this is a basic routine which a skilled technician may do in 15 minutes.

But they are hard to find and no one is left to educate them.

 

[Steve Ricoh]

When your camera returns, Huss, I hope Leica provide a report on cause and rectification. 

 

[logan2z]

5 hours ago, Steve Ricoh said:

When your camera returns, Huss, I hope Leica provide a report on cause and rectification. 

 

Not sure Leica does that.  At least they didn't for my M2 that was just returned from a visit to Wetzlar to fix an issue caused during a full overhaul. No paperwork of any kind was included with the repaired camera, but the issue was fixed. 

[charlesphoto99]

Honestly, at this point, from personal experience, I would not buy a new Leica camera or lens unless one has one to three months they can afford of downtime to send it away (one may win the lottery though and get a good one out of the box). 

[charlesphoto99]

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On 12/22/2022 at 6:09 AM, lmans said:

Actually same can hold true for BW too...right? Their machines just might be dirty and thus that would account for the same issue on your complete roll. 

I know I try to get around that issue by using a dark room bag, and then develop my own film and then scan my own film...

I know from your posts that you really, like REALLY, don't want it to be Leica's fault. I'm sorry, but it's Leica. Those of us who have been shooting M's (and R's etc) for decades know better... (and hey, my daughters' name is Leica, so I'm definitely not a hater, but I'm also not a 'they can do no wrong' type of person). 

[Kiwimac]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Honestly, at this point, from personal experience, I would not buy a new Leica camera or lens unless one has one to three months they can afford of downtime to send it away (one may win the lottery though and get a good one out of the box). 

That’s what the dealer said to me, pretty much -  and he sells them!

 He suggested several alternatives including a Hasselblad X1D ii of all things, which I wouldn’t really regard as an alternative. 

[madNbad]

3 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Honestly, at this point, from personal experience, I would not buy a new Leica camera or lens unless one has one to three months they can afford of downtime to send it away (one may win the lottery though and get a good one out of the box). 

When there is only one manufacturer making film based, interchangeable lens rangefinder cameras and a solid group is buying everything that is shipped, there is no competition to prod them into assuring no new camera comes back for repair. It's happened to Leica before but being such a niche market, they know the buyers wants a Leica and nothing else.

Edited December 27, 2022 by madNbad

[lmans]

8 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I know from your posts that you really, like REALLY, don't want it to be Leica's fault. I'm sorry, but it's Leica. Those of us who have been shooting M's (and R's etc) for decades know better... (and hey, my daughters' name is Leica, so I'm definitely not a hater, but I'm also not a 'they can do no wrong' type of person). 

On most forums ( pick one, pick any), many people put forth negative views. I just happen to think positive… be positive… I am positive. So when looking at Leica or any established high end company, they get to that point for a reason. Sure…. Product issues will occur…. That is natural as nothing is 100%, but in general… Leica has and does put forth quality. Sorry for not being negative:)

Leica Fan boy….Ricoh GR fan boy… OM-1 fan boy…

Edited December 28, 2022 by lmans

[Huss]

I just sold my Fuji Xpro3.  Hardly ever use it, plus it looks like there is a class action lawsuit pending for the defective rear monitor/screen.  So wanted to avoid that nonsense - currently Fuji is charging $500 to repair them even though it is a design flaw.

Point being? Well, it's not just Leica.  Do I feel better about it? No, not really.

[jakontil]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

I just sold my Fuji Xpro3.  Hardly ever use it, plus it looks like there is a class action lawsuit pending for the defective rear monitor/screen.  So wanted to avoid that nonsense - currently Fuji is charging $500 to repair them even though it is a design flaw.

Point being? Well, it's not just Leica.  Do I feel better about it? No, not really.

They just keep failing, sold mine a couple of years ago when problem start arising 

here, dont deal with warranty lol, get rid altogether 

[madNbad]

17 minutes ago, Mooshoepork said:

They definitely have but don’t seem to anymore…

 

What has changed other than their prices increasing?

So many people on these forums have direct experience dealing with this

Mine was 3 brand new MPs…what other brand would fail 3 times out of the box brand new?

The long time users can tell you about the M4-2 kerfuffle. Switching from the brass to steel gears, trying to get an entire production line up and running with a somewhat similar but totally new camera that would jam at the most unexpected times. Leica not only survived it but it became the basis of every film camera built since the 1970s. Currently there’s a hiccup in the production line. They’ll find it and fix it, hopefully leading to a twenty year run of the new M6.

[Matlock]

16 minutes ago, Mooshoepork said:

When did the MP come out? 2003?

My 3 brand new ones were from 2022 so they certainly didn’t find and fix that. 

There’s no excuse for a hand checked, prestige new in box camera scratching film. 

Something is seriously wrong with their QC lately

 

 

 

What exactly were the problems with your new MPs?

[Matlock]

7 hours ago, lmans said:

On most forums ( pick one, pick any), many people put forth negative views. I just happen to think positive… be positive… I am positive. So when looking at Leica or any established high end company, they get to that point for a reason. Sure…. Product issues will occur…. That is natural as nothing is 100%, but in general… Leica has and does put forth quality. Sorry for not being negative:)

Leica Fan boy….Ricoh GR fan boy… OM-1 fan boy…

You realise that you will probably be struck off this forum for daring to suggest that Leica are not a rubbish company, as most of the recent posters seem to think 🙂 

 

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, madNbad said:

The long time users can tell you about the M4-2 kerfuffle.

The long time users, and the long time internet forum users will tell you that most people have a profound ignorance of statistics. They see one black swan, and conclude that all swans are black. They see a small number of Leica camera faults and conclude that Leica's QA has declined. There is no allowance made for: faults that are far more likely to be reported than 'non-faults'; the visibility of faults in the age of the internet compared to even 10 years ago; our forgetfulness about faults that have accompanied just about any new model. And here we have a 6 page thread about one user's camera that has a fault.

Those with a camera with a fault have my sympathy, especially when it is a fault that should have been caught before it left the factory. Those that conclude that Leica's QA is worse than it used to be are just ignorant: they have no means of knowing if it is better or worse. Those that expect all Leica cameras to be perfect are living on a different planet - nothing is perfect and all humans make mistakes.

Edited December 28, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[wattsy]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Those that conclude that Leica's QA is worse than it used to be are just ignorant: they have no means of knowing if it is better or worse. 

Yes, I doubt that anyone on the forum who isn't a Leica employee (I assume there must be one or two) will know the returns/repairs statistics but we all have our own experiences and, whilst that is anecdotal, it can provide a strong impression. I have no idea whether there has been a genuine decline in QA but what I do know is that every Leica camera body I have bought new since 2011, bar one, has returned to Wetzlar for repair or adjustment. Off the top of my head that is 1 x M9P, 1 x Monochrom, 1 x MP, 2 x M-A and 1 x M240. Two of the problems were endemic and not QA related – a cracked sensor and a corroded sensor – but nonetheless those problems necessitated a return to the factory. The only camera that has been problem free is my M240. All of the problems were dealt with by Leica in a courteous and helpful manner within varying timescales (ranging from excellent to rather disappointing). I don't recall any of the Leica cameras I bought prior to 2011 requiring factory service or repair.

It is important not to extrapolate from our own personal experiences and make unnecessary claims about the reliability of Leica products but IMO this works both ways. There are a small number of regulars in the forum who, having presumably not had any problems with Leica gear, have taken it upon themselves to question the truthfulness of many of the complaints or questions raised in the forum. I find this regrettable.

 

[Matlock]

10 minutes ago, wattsy said:

Yes, I doubt that anyone on the forum who isn't a Leica employee (I assume there must be one or two) will know the returns/repairs statistics but we all have our own experiences and, whilst that is anecdotal, it can provide a strong impression. I have no idea whether there has been a genuine decline in QA but what I do know is that every Leica camera body I have bought new since 2011, bar one, has returned to Wetzlar for repair or adjustment. Off the top of my head that is 1 x M9P, 1 x Monochrom, 1 x MP, 2 x M-A and 1 x M240. Two of the problems were endemic and not QA related – a cracked sensor and a corroded sensor – but nonetheless those problems necessitated a return to the factory. The only camera that has been problem free is my M240. All of the problems were dealt with by Leica in a courteous and helpful manner within varying timescales (ranging from excellent to rather disappointing). I don't recall any of the Leica cameras I bought prior to 2011 requiring factory service or repair.

It is important not to extrapolate from our own personal experiences and make unnecessary claims about the reliability of Leica products but IMO this works both ways. There are a small number of regulars in the forum who, having presumably not had any problems with Leica gear, have taken it upon themselves to question the truthfulness of many of the complaints or questions raised in the forum. I find this regrettable.

 

Well luckily, like many others, I can state that none of my Leica camera bodies that I have purchased new since 2012 have been returned. That includes an MP, M-A, and two M10s (a D and R). Also I know of no others who have experienced problems (aside from on this forum). As to your point about the "small number of regulars etc" I suggest you read again what Paul has posted: "Those that conclude that Leica's QA is worse than it used to be are just ignorant: they have no means of knowing if it is better or worse. Those that expect all Leica cameras to be perfect are living on a different planet - nothing is perfect and all humans make mistakes." I certainly question the truthfulness of some, but not all, of the complainants.

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[LocalHero1953]

I have had a M9, M240, CL, TL2 (twice, one s/h), SL, SL2, SL2-S. The only one that had a problem was the M240, which was fixed by the various firmware upgrades. It was never a major issue that stopped me using it. Another sample of 1.

We can also distinguish between true QA issues (it should never have left the factor after checking), such as film scratching (MP, M6), hidden manufacturing defects (M10, Q2 strap lugs), and design flaws (perhaps the M240, M9 sensor, Apo-Summicron-M 50mm flaring, M6 zinc blisters). Where the latest Summilux-M 35mm aperture blade failure falls is not clear at the moment. This list is from my recollection: those who bought new Leicas going back earlier can, I'm sure, add their own experiences.

Edited December 28, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[jakontil]

43 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have had a M9, M240, CL, TL2 (twice, one s/h), SL, SL2, SL2-S. The only one that had a problem was the M240, which was fixed by the various firmware upgrades. It was never a major issue that stopped me using it. Another sample of 1.

We can also distinguish between true QA issues (it should never have left the factor after checking), such as film scratching (MP, M6), hidden manufacturing defects (M10, Q2 strap lugs), and design flaws (perhaps the M240, M9 sensor, Apo-Summicron-M 50mm flaring, M6 zinc blisters). Where the latest Summilux-M 35mm aperture blade failure falls is not clear at the moment. This list is from my recollection: those who bought new Leicas going back earlier can, I'm sure, add their own experiences.

The early batch m10 suffered from sticky iso dial which many seem to forget but it was painful