New Leica M6 Film Camera

[andrew01]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Maybe they could delay release until 2023 and call it the M6 ‘23’ commemorating the 23rd ‘special edition’.  Production strictly limited to 23000 cameras. Special price $23000.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[raizans]

When film photography "died" because of digital, it became undervalued. The cameras were cheap(er). Investment in film production stopped, and film stocks were being discontinued all the time. People worried that they wouldn't be able to use film in the future. Film photography was a "disinvested" community. You know how it was.

Then zoomers aged into the consumer market. It became popular, thanks to celebrities, YouTubers, and Instagramers because it was different from what they grew up with. Prices for the hottest cameras went up drastically (thank you camera porn on IG), creating a bubble. Price hikes for film happen regularly, and producers are investing in new machinery (except Fujifilm). Nowadays, people (mostly zoomers) constantly complain that film photography is too expensive, they want to start or continue to use film but can't afford it, and looking for ways to do it cheaper is trending. People are resorting to cameras with less features and lower build quality since they can't afford sexy ones that they could have bought a few years earlier, thrifting for cameras before the Depop resellers get to it, bulk rolling cine film, and more. New camera companies are trying to make affordable, more accessible cameras, e.g., Intrepid, Dora Goodman, (akin to tiny homes and van life) and people applaud cheaper new film stocks. It's an exciting, if turbulent, time to be in film photography!

Edited September 4, 2022 by raizans

[logan2z]

17 minutes ago, raizans said:

Nowadays, people (mostly zoomers) constantly complain that film photography is too expensive, they want to start or continue to use film but can't afford it, and looking for ways to do it cheaper is trending.

I don't understand this at all.  I can go out right now and buy a high-quality used film camera like a Pentax KX, Nikon FM, etc. for about $150.  The lenses for these cameras are dirt cheap as well - except for some of the 'legendary' ones that fetch a 'premium' of a couple hundred bucks.  So for < $300, you can pick up a good camera and a couple of good lenses. 

Compare that to digital  Even a decent used Fujifilm digital camera like the XT3 costs about $1000, and around $1500+ with one used lens (and that's APS-C, not full frame).  So, if one goes the used SLR route, that leaves about $1200 to buy film.  At current prices, a roll of Tri-X 400 is $10.  So that's 120 rolls of film.  I don't know what the average consumption rate is for amateur film shooters, but 120 rolls of film is going to last me a long while - probably 3 years!  If it's the processing cost that's expensive, then do it yourself at home for pennies a roll.  You don't even need a darkroom, just a changing bag for $20 and an inexpensive daylight tank and reel combo.

So my message to zoomers is: stop complaining about the cost of film and start shooting it  

[IkarusJohn]

7 hours ago, ianman said:

That one was rhetorical, but what do you mean about the top hinge on the M?

Good morning, Ian.

I’m not at all convinced by this talk of a new film M.  I get it that film is a growing niche, and Leica may want to capitalise on that.  So, what is the appeal?  I’d say it’s the M3 form factor, and rangefinder - it’s cool.  But the reality of the M-A/MP might be a barrier to new comers - no AF, tricky focusing to learn, manual exposure setting, no zoom and learning to load the film.

So, two questions - why do the M-A and MP not meet the demand? And what would this putative new camera do to M-A & MP sales?  I suspect Leica has a dwindling number of film camera technicians and if they’re making a new, cheaper camera, it will be significantly different, and more accessible than the existing cameras.  

This new camera will need to be cheaper to make (less hand made) and easier to use for new-comers.  First up would be to make film loading easier - fix the baseplate and hinge the rear door (and pressure plate) to the right hand side, making loading easier.  I’m sure there’s a lot more.  Keep the M mount?  Or fix the lens (I loved my Minox and used my brother’s Rollei 35T a lot). 

Whatever they do, if they do anything, it will be a different camera, and we might be looking at the end of the M-A and/or MP - they will become specialty cameras, saved for special issue.

[hdmesa]

 

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, andrew01 said:

I would be very disappointed if they put on a hinged back and still called it an M camera.  I love the simple film loading system of the M cameras and the extra body rigidity that the design brings.  It is one of the unique design features that makes  the M camera an iconic design that has lasted 60 years.

If they go for something completely different like a modern iteration of the Hexar RF, then by all means put a hinged back on, but don’t call it an M camera.

 

I’m not saying it’s a good idea.

I just can’t see how or why Leica would make a new film camera that is “cheaper”.  An MP with aperture priority added makes more sense, but it won’t be cheap.

[Huss]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, logan2z said:

I don't understand this at all.  I can go out right now and buy a high-quality used film camera like a Pentax KX, Nikon FM, etc. for about $150.  The lenses for these cameras are dirt cheap as well - except for some of the 'legendary' ones that fetch a 'premium' of a couple hundred bucks.  So for < $300, you can pick up a good camera and a couple of good lenses. 

Compare that to digital  Even a decent used Fujifilm digital camera like the XT3 costs about $1000, and around $1500+ with one used lens (and that's APS-C, not full frame).  So, if one goes the used SLR route, that leaves about $1200 to buy film.  At current prices, a roll of Tri-X 400 is $10.  So that's 120 rolls of film.  I don't know what the average consumption rate is for amateur film shooters, but 120 rolls of film is going to last me a long while - probably 3 years!  If it's the processing cost that's expensive, then do it yourself at home for pennies a roll.  You don't even need a darkroom, just a changing bag for $20 and an inexpensive daylight tank and reel combo.

So my message to zoomers is: stop complaining about the cost of film and start shooting it  

One of my fave film stocks is Kentmere 400.  About $5/36 exp

[logan2z]

6 minutes ago, Huss said:

One of my fave film stocks is Kentmere 400.  About $5/36 exp

I should try it - that'd give me 6 years of film 

[ianman]

5 minutes ago, logan2z said:

I should try it - that'd give me 6 years of film 

Ilford PAN400 is even cheaper… and it can be bought in 30,5m rolls which further reduces the cost. I like it a lot.

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Good morning, Ian.

I’m not at all convinced by this talk of a new film M.  I get it that film is a growing niche, and Leica may want to capitalise on that.  So, what is the appeal?  I’d say it’s the M3 form factor, and rangefinder - it’s cool.  But the reality of the M-A/MP might be a barrier to new comers - no AF, tricky focusing to learn, manual exposure setting, no zoom and learning to load the film.

So, two questions - why do the M-A and MP not meet the demand? And what would this putative new camera do to M-A & MP sales?  I suspect Leica has a dwindling number of film camera technicians and if they’re making a new, cheaper camera, it will be significantly different, and more accessible than the existing cameras.  

This new camera will need to be cheaper to make (less hand made) and easier to use for new-comers.  First up would be to make film loading easier - fix the baseplate and hinge the rear door (and pressure plate) to the right hand side, making loading easier.  I’m sure there’s a lot more.  Keep the M mount?  Or fix the lens (I loved my Minox and used my brother’s Rollei 35T a lot). 

Whatever they do, if they do anything, it will be a different camera, and we might be looking at the end of the M-A and/or MP - they will become specialty cameras, saved for special issue.

Start from the Leica marketers saying “How can we make a low cost, entry-level manual film body that gets people hooked on buying M lenses”. The only things they need to keep are the M mount and the rangefinder. They will keep the shape for both practical and marketing reasons, but forget brass and heavy metal, forget the baseplate (unless that really is the cheapest design to load film), and say hello to whatever materials and designs will do the job cheaper. 

I could see it happening. I’m not saying it will, but it’s a credible scenario (as seen from my armchair). 

Edited September 4, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[grahamc]

From a tech / manufacturing perspective is it feasible to put the same 1/4000 shutter as pre-M11 digital M's, in a mechanical film M ?

I'd welcome that advance alone 

[madNbad]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Start from the Leica marketers saying “How can we make a low cost, entry-level manual film body that gets people hooked on buying M lenses”. The only things they need to keep are the M mount and the rangefinder. They will keep the shape for both practical and marketing reasons, but forget brass and heavy metal, forget the baseplate (unless that really is the cheapest design to load film), and say hello to whatever materials and designs will do the job cheaper. 

I could see it happening. I’m not saying it will, but it’s a credible scenario (as seen from my armchair). 

I keep posting that the next film M camera should be a composite body around a titanium frame. Like the MA/MP, there could be a meter less version and one with a M7 shutter. It would be easy to add a swing opening back and continue to have the same dimension of the current M bodies. There’s a lot of could’ve and should’ve in this guessing game but there have been some good ideas and how the members feel about the future of the film bodies.

[adan]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Start from the Leica marketers saying “How can we make a low cost, entry-level manual film body that gets people hooked on buying M lenses”

My own opinion is that Leica not longer thinks "the body is the gateway to lens sales" model works. Too many people can buy an M and load it up with more-than-adequate 7As and TTs and LLs and C/Vs. Or with used lenses by Leitz, Leica, or others.

I expect that is why the digital M prices have skyrocketed $2400/36% between 2017 (my plain M10s - $6595 each) and today's M bodies (all $8995: US prices, before local sales taxes). And that was before the current inflation spike, and the devaluation of the Euro.

The camera bodies don't actually produce as many lens sales as they did when Leica had the field to itself, so now the cameras have to pay their own way, up front.

...............

As to a film M, I think Leica (and owners) have been burned enough by electronics obsolescence (M6/M6ttl) that any new film camera will stick with basic clockwork-only operation like the M-A. No battery required, no framelines sliced and diced for a finder readout. A camera that really can function for a lifetime, regardless of which chip and CB suppliers quit making 35-year-old technology.

As to cheaper - well, what happened to the Voigtländer Bessas and Zeiss-Ikon? They were inexpensive, but they still died fairly rapidly in the marketplace.

Just a "Red Dot" effect? Maybe Leica can work out a deal with Cosina to re-open their production line for sub-assemblies, with final assembly of 4-5 modules in Wetzlar (shutter/film wind/rewind; RF/VF; main body/lens-mount; top/bottom plates; levers and buttons) to qualify for the "Made in Germany" label. Not sure Dr. K would want that; not sure Cosina would want that; not sure Portugal would want that (or that Cosina could reduce costs much below Portugal anyway).

[jsrockit]

10 hours ago, adan said:

As to a film M, I think Leica (and owners) have been burned enough by electronics obsolescence (M6/M6ttl) that any new film camera will stick with basic clockwork-only operation like the M-A. No battery required, no framelines sliced and diced for a finder readout. A camera that really can function for a lifetime, regardless of which chip and CB suppliers quit making 35-year-old technology.

Why would they need that though if they already have the M-A?  The camera that has skyrocketed on the used market is the M6 and M6 TTL.  Leica has noticed this I am sure.  

Edited September 5, 2022 by jsrockit

[Sunyforreal]

A film Leica Q priced at about $3,699 would put it at about the same price delta as the MP compared to the M11.
 

I’d definitely be interested in a $3,699 film Leica Q

[hdmesa]

53 minutes ago, Sunyforreal said:

A film Leica Q priced at about $3,699 would put it at about the same price delta as the MP compared to the M11.
 

I’d definitely be interested in a $3,699 film Leica Q

They couldn't correct the Q lens distortion on film, so there would be no cheating. That means the cost would be either 28 Lux ($7.8K USD) or Cron ($5.1K USD) cost plus the film body (6K USD). A film Q would be very expensive if they stuck with a high quality 28. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by hdmesa

[adan]

3 minutes ago, Sunyforreal said:

A film Leica Q priced at about $3,699 would put it at about the same price delta as the MP compared to the M11.

hdmesa has now covered this:

Hmmm - how would a film Q handle the fact that the 28mm f/1.7 lens has an enormous amount of native barrel (fisheye) distortion, which is removed by digital processing in the camera? It is a closed ecosystem dependent on being a digital camera.

https://diglloyd.com/prem/s/LEICA/LeicaM/LeicaQ-distortion-Dolls.html?dglyPT=true

Or the fact that the Q only has a digital viewfinder?

I suppose Leica could produce "a Q-like object" with a permanent 28mm lens of a different design, and an optical viewfinder.

41 minutes ago, jsrockit said:

Why would they need that though if they already have the M-A?  The camera that has skyrocketed on the used market is the M6 and M6 TTL.  Leica has noticed this I am sure.  

Well, that is why I have my doubts about a new film Leica. I think it is mostly click-bait from influencer-wannabees. Plus a certain amount of confusing "wishful thinking" for real-world marketing and engineering.

As to the M6s, either the buyers understand that those could turn into a zinc M-A at some point (meter dies, no longer repairable).

Or are simply "Mr. Toads," who jump into whatever the newest fad is, without actually knowing what they are getting into. I imagine most people here know a contemporary Mr. Toad or two.

https://hero.fandom.com/wiki/Mr._Toad

When Leica Rumors kicked off the "new, cheaper M6" craze about 15 months ago, about the only reason I though Leica had for doing that was to revive the rewind crank in place of the MP's knob. An MP6. But it would not be significantly less expensive.

[Sunyforreal]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

They couldn't correct the Q lens distortion on film, so there would be no cheating. That means the cost would be either 28 Lux ($7.8K USD) or Cron ($5.1K USD) cost plus the film body (6K USD). A film Q would be very expensive if they stuck with a high quality 28. 

Fair point. The money saved by using a basic OVF could be put towards a more improved lens formula, maybe with slight reduction in max aperture. And it wouldn’t need as premium materials as an M since the stigma would not be as present. Fixed lens cameras are inherently cheaper than interchangeable lens cameras anyways. So maybe something Leica Q-esque, with an autofocus 28mm f/2 therabouts, and an OVF, wrapped and packed in Portugal, for at or around $4k?

Edited September 5, 2022 by Sunyforreal

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[adan]

A road Leica has been down before. Less-expensive film camera, vaguely M-shaped, fixed lens (a zoom, but that could be changed).

Made by Panasonic in an early joint venture. There were also C2 and C3 versions. Did not exactly cut a swath through the marketplace.

Maybe it was just ahead of its time.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/C1

[hdmesa]

46 minutes ago, Sunyforreal said:

Fair point. The money saved by using a basic OVF could be put towards a more improved lens formula, maybe with slight reduction in max aperture. And it wouldn’t need as premium materials as an M since the stigma would not be as present. Fixed lens cameras are inherently cheaper than interchangeable lens cameras anyways. So maybe something Leica Q-esque, with an autofocus 28mm f/2 therabouts, and an OVF, wrapped and packed in Portugal, for at or around $4k?

I think the Leica mechanical rangefinder is more expensive than an EVF, or at least not less expensive. There would be no getting away from the the body being basically the same as a current film M, rangefinder and all. So it kind of begs the question as to what would be the point of a fixed lens film camera unless they make it as 6x7 medium format.

Think of it this way: the current film M cameras are the cost of the M11 minus the cost of the sensor. I don’t think there is any way around that unless they make an SLR-M instead of a rangefinder.