6 months down the road: tough going?

[SrMi]

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9 minutes ago, otto.f said:

I don’t think that’s correct. Monochrom sensors have three channels, but they are all gray-scale, it’s just that they are not used for the three primary colors from the Bayer filter.  If your theory for color sensors would be true, the recovered parts would have a color cast

What three channels? Red, green, and blue in “grayscale” 😁? There is no Bayer filter on monochrome sensors, hence better sensitivity and resolution.

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[otto.f]

4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

There is no Bayer filter on monochrome sensors

Exactly, but there are three channels

[SrMi]

18 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Exactly, but there are three channels

No, I do not think so. How do you generate three channels without a CFA in the front?
What is your source for this strange assumption?
You can find enough resources in this forum and online that show that there is only one channel.

If you open the monochrome DNG in RawDigger, you will see that it contains only one channel.

Edited June 30, 2022 by SrMi
Added Rawdigger test

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, okcomputer said:

Can anyone comment on how the M11 treats highlights?  On the M10-Monochrom, it always felt like I needed to underexpose in many situations and then bring shadows back up in post (not something I want to make a habit of).

thanks

M11 sensor act like color sensor with good dynamic range. It is very similar highlight recovery like SL2, and the other cameras from canon and Sony.

I find it better to expose correctly and recover a stop of highlights than underexposing 2 stops. If you underexpose you are quickly generating noise in higher iso.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, otto.f said:

I don’t think that’s correct. Monochrom sensors have three channels, but they are all gray-scale, it’s just that they are not used for the three primary colors from the Bayer filter.  If you make three takes with a Monochrom of the same subject with red green and blue filters, you can make color photo’s in PP afterwards. If your theory for color sensors would be true, the recovered parts would have a color cast

No, a sensor with no color array captures luminance (regardless of color) at the pixel level. Using the three picture, three colored filter approach can indeed result in some color cast, but this can be addressed in software using white balance, etc. One can use a similar technique with black & white film to produce a color image and, last I checked, b/w film doesn’t have three channels…

https://petapixel.com/2018/07/25/how-to-create-full-color-photos-using-only-bw-film/

Jeff

[SrMi]

32 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

M11 sensor act like color sensor with good dynamic range. It is very similar highlight recovery like SL2, and the other cameras from canon and Sony.

I find it better to expose correctly and recover a stop of highlights than underexposing 2 stops. If you underexpose you are quickly generating noise in higher iso.

If you expose correctly then you do not blow any channel and to not need to recover highlights (assuming we use Adobe’s definition of highlight recovery).

[tom0511]

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb okcomputer:

Can anyone comment on how the M11 treats highlights?  On the M10-Monochrom, it always felt like I needed to underexpose in many situations and then bring shadows back up in post (not something I want to make a habit of).

thanks

highlights are not as critical like the Monochrome (I do however only have experience with ccd Mono and M246).

First I believe there is more highlight room from the M11 sensor, and second I think with color sensor there is always some more room for highlight recovery compared to a monochrom sensor.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

No, I do not think so. How do you generate three channels without a CFA in the front?
What is your source for this strange assumption?
You can find enough resources in this forum and online that show that there is only one channel.

If you open the monochrome DNG in RawDigger, you will see that it contains only one channel.

I think they are confusing the RGB color mode of final images with the single channel in the DNG captured by the camera.

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

If you expose correctly then you do not blow any channel and to not need to recover highlights (assuming we use Adobe’s definition of highlight recovery).

good think I don't use Lightroom to process my photos 🙂

I like the highlights rolloff from capture one much better.

 

PS there is no correct exposure if you bring to get in all the DR possible. but I am grateful to be able to replace my M10-P with a modern sensor.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

4 hours ago, otto.f said:

I don’t think that’s correct. Monochrom sensors have three channels, but they are all gray-scale, it’s just that they are not used for the three primary colors from the Bayer filter.  If you make three takes with a Monochrom of the same subject with red green and blue filters, you can make color photo’s in PP afterwards. If your theory for color sensors would be true, the recovered parts would have a color cast

You are confusing the camera output (single greyscale output) with the file that’s outputted by your raw software (RGB but all grey). The camera herdware os one chanel and there’s a software conversion to three channel in post to make the files readable.

Hope that makes sense.

Gordon

[davidmknoble]

What I think will be nice about the highlights is to now worry about having to recover them.  Remember that recovering a blown highlight in a color image means that one or two color channels are blown, but not the other.  It still means you have a loss of collar hues in the bright spots, which can be important in things like clouds.

My point is that the M11 has the highest M dynamic range yet, so underexpose and bring the shadows back.  A darker image may be your friend.  Then your highlights will look more natural and the shadows should not show any or much noise at least compared to older models of digital M.s

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

good think I don't use Lightroom to process my photos 🙂

I like the highlights rolloff from capture one much better.

 

PS there is no correct exposure if you bring to get in all the DR possible. but I am grateful to be able to replace my M10-P with a modern sensor.

Do not understand the swipe at Adobe.

C1 should also be able to do highlight recovery by reconstruction of missing data.

Highlights rolloff is something else. Blown highlights have no rolloff any more 😄.

You introduced the term “correct exposure.” In my book it can only mean that no highlights are blown. 

[elmars]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb davidmknoble:

My point is that the M11 has the highest M dynamic range yet,

Not only M but it has the highest dynamic range in the market with very few other sensors.

[Photoworks]

9 hours ago, SrMi said:

Do not understand the swipe at Adobe.

C1 should also be able to do highlight recovery by reconstruction of missing data.

Highlights rolloff is something else. Blown highlights have no rolloff any more 😄.

You introduced the term “correct exposure.” In my book it can only mean that no highlights are blown. 

I have a hard time liking the color reproduction of adobe camera raw and Lightroom mobile.
it always need loots of work to make it look good.

Camera profiles from C1P are very good. now even on iPad

“correct exposure.”?  I think you can go either way. save highlights, or save shadows, it is all relative. I think it is still a creative decision where you are going with it. there are no rules, and if you think there are it is good to break them. All I am saying is that you want a white sky and you don't care about recovery go for it. I adapt to what ever I want to create.

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I have a hard time liking the color reproduction of adobe camera raw and Lightroom mobile.
it always need loots of work to make it look good.

Camera profiles from C1P are very good. now even on iPad

“correct exposure.”?  I think you can go either way. save highlights, or save shadows, it is all relative. I think it is still a creative decision where you are going with it. there are no rules, and if you think there are it is good to break them. All I am saying is that you want a white sky and you don't care about recovery go for it. I adapt to what ever I want to create.

Yes, I always forget to mention that it is about saving relevant highlights. The relevance of highlights is an artistic decision, of course. 

Why bring up Adobe vs. C1 at all when I only referenced an Adobe document describing what is highlight recovery (in Adobe and other post processors).

As somebody who also owns a C1 license, I do have my opinion, but voicing it here would completely derail this thread.

 

 

[davidmknoble]

On 7/1/2022 at 1:24 AM, elmars said:

Not only M but it has the highest dynamic range in the market with very few other sensors.

The S3 still has a higher dynamic range, but yes in general you are correct.

[M11 for me]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb davidmknoble:

yes in general you are correct

Absolutely. Good you came to the same conclusion.

[SrMi]

19 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

The S3 still has a higher dynamic range, but yes in general you are correct.

Larger sensors have typically higher dynamic range.

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[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Larger sensors have typically higher dynamic range.

In any case, the original statement about the S3 having more DR than the M11 was wrong. Even the SL2-S has higher DR than the S3. BSI > FSI even accounting for the extra sensor area.

https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M11,Leica S3,Leica SL2-S

If someone wants more DR than the M11, you're looking at moving to something like the GFX 100S (BSI, same pixel density, but larger sensor).

Edited July 7, 2022 by hdmesa

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

In any case, the original statement about the S3 having more DR than the M11 was wrong. Even the SL2-S has higher DR than the S3. BSI > FSI even accounting for the extra sensor area.

https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M11,Leica S3,Leica SL2-S

If someone wants more DR than the M11, you're looking at moving to something like the GFX 100S (BSI, same pixel density, but larger sensor).

Yes, the sensor technology matters sometimes more than sensor size, though BSI does not help DR at larger sensor sizes (>= m43?). BSI helps with readout speed and with the steep light angles.