6 months down the road: tough going?

[Jon Warwick]

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1 hour ago, fsprow said:

Big prints are extremely close in fine detail to those of my Hasselblad H6D-100c and the M11 has largely replaced it. 

That comment might surprise some people, but I came to a similar conclusion about both fine detail (and, to my eyes, the “look”) of crops from 60” wide prints after I did handheld test shots of the same street scenes, using the M11 against my GFX100S whilst using equivalent focal lengths (ie, a 50mm APO Lanthar and GF 63mm lens, respectively).

Keeping the GFX for now for color images simply because I’d owned it for a short period and it seemed a bit quick to switch, I ended up getting an M10 Monochrom, which unhesitatingly has replaced my GFX100S for B&W images to the same 60” wide size.

[setuporg]

34 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

M10 Monochrom

I had that too, both M10M and M10R since their release, and it’s an additional motivation to keep the reusable system together.

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[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

That comment might surprise some people, but I came to a similar conclusion about both fine detail (and, to my eyes, the “look”) of crops from 60” wide prints after I did handheld test shots of the same street scenes, using the M11 against my GFX100S whilst using equivalent focal lengths (ie, a 50mm APO Lanthar and GF 63mm lens, respectively).

Keeping the GFX for now for color images simply because I’d owned it for a short period and it seemed a bit quick to switch, I ended up getting an M10 Monochrom, which unhesitatingly has replaced my GFX100S for B&W images to the same 60” wide size.

You will certainly have less aliasing with your M10 Monochrom than with GFX100S.

[Jon Warwick]

14 hours ago, SrMi said:

You will certainly have less aliasing with your M10 Monochrom than with GFX100S.

Yes, agreed, and I find it a noticeable benefit. I think it’s an amalgamation of that type of “purity” of image capture on a Monochrom sensor (eg, without the additional processing of an RGB checkerboard in a color filter array camera) that I appreciate a lot. I’m not sure everyone sees it the same, but the result to my eyes is that  big prints off my M10 Monochrom look the least “digital” of any digital camera I’ve used. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Jon Warwick

[Tailwagger]

One of those not so subtle benefits I mentioned above in the form of a sample shot from this morning (crappy... but illustrative).  In this case, the value of the M11's increased DR.  I doubt the M10-R could have pulled this off so easily... I know the M10 couldn't have managed it all.

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Processed...

I could easily have pulled on the interior of the shed far harder if I cared to, but felt leaving in the sense of shadow was the more natural choice.  It should be mentioned lest one get the wrong impression that the shed across the way did indeed have a silvery gray metal roof.  Pretty impressive AFAIC that what appeared initially to be blown actually retained the correct color info. 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Tailwagger

[Al Brown]

On 6/5/2022 at 10:29 PM, setuporg said:

The color difference is drastic while both have a Leica look

M10 was awesome as it was a quantum leap from M240. It was the first really useful (not good, mind you, good is subjective) but USEFUL digital M Leica with very few flaws compared to its predecessor. No green in the recovered shadows, bigger OVF, better buffer, nicer menu, slimmed down body etc. etc.
M11 is technically THE BEST DIGITAL M LEICA the company ever made, period. But it seems to lack the mojo of M10 when it came out.

PS. Please post examples of your Leica look you are having with with both cameras. I have them both too (M10-R and M9) and want to see them vibes you are getting.

[Kwesi]

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2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

M10 was awesome as it was a quantum leap from M240. It was the first really useful (not good, mind you, good is subjective) but USEFUL digital M Leica with very few flaws compared to its predecessor. No green in the recovered shadows, bigger OVF, better buffer, nicer menu, slimmed down body etc. etc.
M11 is technically THE BEST DIGITAL M LEICA the company ever made, period. But it seems to lack the mojo of M10 when it came out.

PS. Please post examples of your Leica look you are having with with both cameras. I have them both too (M10-R and M9) and want to see them vibes you are getting.

While the M10 is a tough act to follow for precisely the points you make above, the M 11 does move the needle significantly in terms of sensor performance.

I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know and use  the new "film" over the last 6 months.

[tashley]

On 6/5/2022 at 9:29 PM, setuporg said:

Checking in after a while, I see that M11 is still rather polarizing.  

It's not the M10 that everyone fell in love with right away.

Clearly if something requires so much debate or work to love, it's not a clear-cut home run success.  I've made a decision to postpone upgrading my M10R, and so far find that I keep enjoying it and also giving lots of light to the M9 that I got instead of waiting for M11.  The color difference is drastic while both have a Leica look.  I can get the M11 look from the Hasselblad 907x.  If there's a disagreement on whether M11 even has a Leica look, it's another reason to wait until things settle down, or the P comes out.

The M11 may not be all it *could* be and at times it is irritating BUT it’s certainly - for my use - the best M I’ve shot with and maybe the best camera I have owned. 
 

I don’t regret selling my 10r or my Hassy X1D and I now rarely use my Sony or Phase One gear. The only camera I use as much is my Q2. 
 

** quality control. C’mon Leica. At this price? Really?

Edited June 8, 2022 by tashley

[mikelevitt]

100% happy with the M11.  Big step forward from M10.

[setuporg]

On 6/6/2022 at 5:44 AM, fsprow said:

Agree 100%. Best camera I’ve ever used. Great resolution, simple controls, fine colors, even a very capable large JPEG. Big prints are extremely close in fine detail to those of my Hasselblad H6D-100c and the M11 has largely replaced it. 

All of this is M10-R as well.  I notice many M11 fans who have not had M10-R.  At the same time I’ve found many M10-R owners who either refused to upgrade or actually did and sold their M11s.  The key reasons are:

— stapler sound with always open shutter 

— no real ISO advantage until ISO 25,000

– insubstantial resolution improvement with 60MP over 40MP while potentially even more blur, thus making 1/f even harder

Generally speaking it’s not worth the $4K upgrade cost in the same way as it was worth the $4K upgrade cost from M10 to M10-R.  Battery, USB-C, buttons are not IQ related in any way.

[elmars]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb setuporg:

Battery, USB-C, buttons are not IQ related in any way.

But these are great practical improvements. For me they are worth the money. But that‘s just me. I did not buy the M10-R because I expected tis improvements. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by elmars

[SrMi]

39 minutes ago, setuporg said:

All of this is M10-R as well.  I notice many M11 fans who have not had M10-R.  At the same time I’ve found many M10-R owners who either refused to upgrade or actually did and sold their M11s.  The key reasons are:

— stapler sound with always open shutter 

— no real ISO advantage until ISO 25,000

– insubstantial resolution improvement with 60MP over 40MP while potentially even more blur, thus making 1/f even harder

Generally speaking it’s not worth the $4K upgrade cost in the same way as it was worth the $4K upgrade cost from M10 to M10-R.  Battery, USB-C, buttons are not IQ related in any way.

AFAIK, most current M11 owners (fans?) have upgraded from M10-R. There seem to be only a couple of newcomers.

I do not know if the following advantages are worth the $4K;
- There is a considerable (1-stop) DR advantage at base ISO, which likely translates to somewhat better tonality, IQ, etc.
- Even though it has a slow sensor readout, the electronic shutter is a considerable benefit.
- Wide-open shooting without ND filters is possible (lower base ISO, faster max shutter speed)
- Much better LV and EVF, if you care about it.
- Lighter camera (black).
- Battery life is much better.
- Much better long exposure (e.g., to replace using X1D).
- Better flare resistance, though it may be hard to notice.

 

[Leslie22]

For me the real surprise was the USB C charging , thought I would never use it .........

But it's so easy to pull the plug out of the iPad Pro and into the bottom of the M11 , use it all the time.

The M11 does have some firmware issues , but It's the best M I've owned (M8, M9, M240) My poor old SL2 has hardly been out of the house sine the M11 arrived.

 

[setuporg]

48 minutes ago, SrMi said:

AFAIK, most current M11 owners (fans?) have upgraded from M10-R. There seem to be only a couple of newcomers.

Just in this thread, from what I gather, at least three folks have not had M10-R when skipping straight to M11: @lct, @Jewl, @elmars.  @LeicaR10 sold his M11, judging M10-R the last real M.

I'm absolutely uninspired by the e-shutter that wiggles.  You never know if the lines will come out straight.  I got the dreaded snakes familiar from X1D eshutter on January 13 when I tried the M11 at a Leica store.  The stapler sound is worse than M10-R and the very idea of the shutter that does extra motions is unappealing to me.  The M10-R shutter is closed most of the time, as deity intended.

I'm not sure Reid found the extra DR point?

The solution will be a fast eshutter that will obviate the mechanical one.  I enjoy my PIXII for that reason.  But it's a quirky extra...  The M10-R stays for me until M11-P comes out.

[SrMi]

46 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Just in this thread, from what I gather, at least three folks have not had M10-R when skipping straight to M11: @lct, @Jewl, @elmars.  @LeicaR10 sold his M11, judging M10-R the last real M.

I'm absolutely uninspired by the e-shutter that wiggles.  You never know if the lines will come out straight.  I got the dreaded snakes familiar from X1D eshutter on January 13 when I tried the M11 at a Leica store.  The stapler sound is worse than M10-R and the very idea of the shutter that does extra motions is unappealing to me.  The M10-R shutter is closed most of the time, as deity intended.

I'm not sure Reid found the extra DR point?

The solution will be a fast eshutter that will obviate the mechanical one.  I enjoy my PIXII for that reason.  But it's a quirky extra...  The M10-R stays for me until M11-P comes out.

Based on how much time and energy you spent trying to find reasons why not to buy an M11, I suggest a poll: will @setuporgbuy an M11 in 2022 or 2023? 😁

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, setuporg said:

….

The solution will be a fast eshutter that will obviate the mechanical one.  I enjoy my PIXII for that reason.  But it's a quirky extra...  The M10-R stays for me until M11-P comes out.

Pixii does not have a fast eshutter. According to my measurements:

Pixii Fast mode: 33ms; Fine mode: 150ms.

M11: 67ms, X1D: 250ms.

 

[tom0511]

Since I have compared these two cameras M10r and M11 to the point where it gets pointless...

I think both are great cameras, and both still have some things on the "positive" list. For me the "positive" list of the M11 is longer, for others it may be the opposite.

Shutter sound for example, a very subjective thing, if the difference is of big importance or not. How often does one use the EVF - is the improved VF2 of relevance or not? Same for battery. Same for resolution etc. etc.

I am totally fine with the M11. The one thing - I still see room for some further FW improvements, but I trust Leica will serve us well in this regard.

[Photoworks]

6 hours ago, setuporg said:

All of this is M10-R as well.  I notice many M11 fans who have not had M10-R.  At the same time I’ve found many M10-R owners who either refused to upgrade or actually did and sold their M11s.  The key reasons are:

— stapler sound with always open shutter 

— no real ISO advantage until ISO 25,000

– insubstantial resolution improvement with 60MP over 40MP while potentially even more blur, thus making 1/f even harder

Generally speaking it’s not worth the $4K upgrade cost in the same way as it was worth the $4K upgrade cost from M10 to M10-R.  Battery, USB-C, buttons are not IQ related in any way.

No need to repeat what other have said. but you are trying to justify why you don't have one. or spoiling the joy everyone is getting from the M11.

Maybe because it is hard to get, but you want one .

maybe it burn money in you wallet and then there is nothing left.

For me M10-R was the fix that the M10 should have had. Finally a sensor that was usable without the need to stress about exposure compensation.

Since January the M11 came in and it going everywhere I am going. M10-R no so much. Still good camera but who cares. ( sorry you probably do)

the other day I went out with M10M, M11, and 2 summilux. what drove me crazy is the Button layout. play is in different places, menu is different. The biggest complain was that I needed to underexpose with ND filter at 1.4 and I was still overexposed.
Leica M11, it was a sweet ride, 64 ISO no problem.

that reminds me, I have to go back to the M10 forum and Sh**T on the M10-r, I haven't been there in some time... probably January .

[lct]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

Based on how much time and energy you spent trying to find reasons why not to buy an M11, I suggest a poll: will @setuporgbuy an M11 in 2022 or 2023? 😁

2023? The OP won't feel compelled to wait that long hopefully. I would vote for June 2022 this way he can win if he buys in July .

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[Photoworks]

34 minutes ago, lct said:

2023? The OP won't feel compelled to wait that long hopefully. I would vote for June 2022 this way he can win if he buys in July .

 

34 minutes ago, lct said:

Based on how much time and energy you spent trying to find reasons why not to buy an M11, I suggest a poll: will @setuporgbuy an M11 in 2022 or 2023? 😁

you know what even more interesting! @setuporg has only posted on M11 section and some in Leica S section talking about the M11. 🤔