6 months down the road: tough going?

[tom.w.bn]

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb lct:

The M11 has the sexier shutter sound by far.

 

 

NSFW

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[stout_trapdoor9]

The M11 is my 2nd Leica camera after having purchased a M10M a few months earlier. I came to the Leica by a rather long route of digital cameras - Nikon D50, Nikon D800, Nikon D810, Fujifilm X-T2, Nikon Z7, Leica Q2, Fujifilm X-Pro3, Fujifilm GFX 100S, Leica Q2M. I also used a Ricoh GRII and GRIII. I have sold all of them, and although I still miss the Q2M, (and to a lesser extent the Q2, both because of the weather sealing) the rest don't bother me now that they're gone - the one I loved (Ricoh GR III) I still have.

Having used a M10M, the M11 was easy enough to begin using. The files are a significant step below the GFX100S, but since I don't print beyond 60", I made the decision to sell it as I wanted a camera that I could have with me at all times. The Hasselblad X1D was a close contender but at that price point I preferred the size and lens quality available for the M platform. Funny how IBIS, while desirable in the GFX100S since it meant hand holding at medium format file sizes was possible, was not at all a factor in 35mm format. What I found is that the pictures I was using IBIS to take were not my best work. The more desirable characteristic was better performing high ISOs, and especially with the M10M, they looked really good. The Leica Q2 didn't last for me because of the artifacts that showed up ISO 3200 and higher, along with colour noise and degradation. I also didn't like the stretched edges at the outer side of the sensor. There isn't much I don't like about the Leica M11 except perhaps changing the button locations as compared to the M10M. The battery life is fantastic, the best of any mirrorless I've used by a country mile - this is a huge factor for me as battery life is the thing I like the least about the M10M, particularly in cold weather. I guess I could complain about the shutter sound when you turn the M11 on, but it's not that big a deal for me.

Most of the reviews I've seen of the M11 on YouTube or read in blogs have been by those who either don't own the camera or had possession of it for a very limited time and produced reviews in an attempt to be first to press - and therefore useless for anyone who really wants a good rundown of the camera.

And... I am a bad human being according to some, I don't own one Leica lens (although I have used quite a few) - all of mine are CV or Zeiss, my current favourites of which are the 35/2 APO Lanthar, 50/1 Nokton, and 28/2.8 Biogon. They are all fantastic with the M11. I am only two months in with the M11, but I am a very satisfied customer to date - especially with the highlight metering that was introduced recently. I wish I had the same for my M10M as I frequently shoot -2 to -3EV (or even more) based off of centre-weighted metering.

[stout_trapdoor9]

I forgot to add in my previous post that I have written a review of my experiences to date for those who are interested.

https://darkisthenightforall.wordpress.com/2022/06/15/leica-m11/

[Herr Barnack]

6 hours ago, setuporg said:

Don't know who those people are, if you read what I wrote, you know that I tried M11 at launch and brought home a card full of images.  Some snaky electronic shutter ones.  I've not liked the sound of the shutter, and I didn't see much improvement over M10-R in image quality.  That's where it stands still.  For my needs, M10-R is absolutely sufficient.

Also, off topically, totally agree with Gordon:

Looking forward to X2D!

@setuporg My post about complainers who never actually used an M11 was not made with you in mind.  Apologies if you took it otherwise.

I went back and looked, and I did miss your post #34 about the e-shutter that wiggles.  That is a legitimate issue; I will have to do some research on that one before committing my hard earned wheel barrow full of shekels to the M11. 

I know one could just use the mechanical shutter instead, but I'm wondering if certain shutter speeds cause the squiggly lines with the electronic shutter?  Or is it all shutter speeds that do that?

[SrMi]

16 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

@setuporg My post about complainers who never actually used an M11 was not made with you in mind.  Apologies if you took it otherwise.

I went back and looked, and I did miss your post #34 about the e-shutter that wiggles.  That is a legitimate issue; I will have to do some research on that one before committing my hard earned wheel barrow full of shekels to the M11. 

I know one could just use the mechanical shutter instead, but I'm wondering if certain shutter speeds cause the squiggly lines with the electronic shutter?  Or is it all shutter speeds that do that?

The rolling shutter effect occurs when the scene is not stationary enough. As the sensor is read slowly (top to bottom?), if the scene changes before the readout is completed, there will be distortions. The effect is independent of the selected shutter speed.

[stout_trapdoor9]

3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

@setuporg My post about complainers who never actually used an M11 was not made with you in mind.  Apologies if you took it otherwise.

I went back and looked, and I did miss your post #34 about the e-shutter that wiggles.  That is a legitimate issue; I will have to do some research on that one before committing my hard earned wheel barrow full of shekels to the M11. 

I know one could just use the mechanical shutter instead, but I'm wondering if certain shutter speeds cause the squiggly lines with the electronic shutter?  Or is it all shutter speeds that do that?

They do not. I am perfectly happy with the electronic shutter speeds at all ranges. I don't see artifacts of any kind unless the subject is moving horizontally at high speed, even then it can be tough to spot. This one is at 1/16000s shot with a CV Nokton at f1.

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[Herr Barnack]

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New Rule:

Do not photograph an Indy car race with an M11 set to electronic shutter mode.  😎

[SoarFM]

6 hours ago, stout_trapdoor9 said:

The M11 is my 2nd Leica camera after having purchased a M10M a few months earlier. I came to the Leica by a rather long route of digital cameras - Nikon D50, Nikon D800, Nikon D810, Fujifilm X-T2, Nikon Z7, Leica Q2, Fujifilm X-Pro3, Fujifilm GFX 100S, Leica Q2M. I also used a Ricoh GRII and GRIII. I have sold all of them, and although I still miss the Q2M, (and to a lesser extent the Q2, both because of the weather sealing) the rest don't bother me now that they're gone - the one I loved (Ricoh GR III) I still have.

Having used a M10M, the M11 was easy enough to begin using. The files are a significant step below the GFX100S, but since I don't print beyond 60", I made the decision to sell it as I wanted a camera that I could have with me at all times. The Hasselblad X1D was a close contender but at that price point I preferred the size and lens quality available for the M platform. Funny how IBIS, while desirable in the GFX100S since it meant hand holding at medium format file sizes was possible, was not at all a factor in 35mm format. What I found is that the pictures I was using IBIS to take were not my best work. The more desirable characteristic was better performing high ISOs, and especially with the M10M, they looked really good. The Leica Q2 didn't last for me because of the artifacts that showed up ISO 3200 and higher, along with colour noise and degradation. I also didn't like the stretched edges at the outer side of the sensor. There isn't much I don't like about the Leica M11 except perhaps changing the button locations as compared to the M10M. The battery life is fantastic, the best of any mirrorless I've used by a country mile - this is a huge factor for me as battery life is the thing I like the least about the M10M, particularly in cold weather. I guess I could complain about the shutter sound when you turn the M11 on, but it's not that big a deal for me.

Most of the reviews I've seen of the M11 on YouTube or read in blogs have been by those who either don't own the camera or had possession of it for a very limited time and produced reviews in an attempt to be first to press - and therefore useless for anyone who really wants a good rundown of the camera.

And... I am a bad human being according to some, I don't own one Leica lens (although I have used quite a few) - all of mine are CV or Zeiss, my current favourites of which are the 35/2 APO Lanthar, 50/1 Nokton, and 28/2.8 Biogon. They are all fantastic with the M11. I am only two months in with the M11, but I am a very satisfied customer to date - especially with the highlight metering that was introduced recently. I wish I had the same for my M10M as I frequently shoot -2 to -3EV (or even more) based off of centre-weighted metering.

The TL;DR is--size matters.

I'm deep in the Leica system, even have a 3 lens SL kit for when AF is a must.  But the truth is, the smaller the camera, the more it gets used.

[hdmesa]

10 hours ago, setuporg said:

Don't know who those people are, if you read what I wrote, you know that I tried M11 at launch and brought home a card full of images.  Some snaky electronic shutter ones.  I've not liked the sound of the shutter, and I didn't see much improvement over M10-R in image quality.  That's where it stands still.  For my needs, M10-R is absolutely sufficient.

Also, off topically, totally agree with Gordon:

Looking forward to X2D!

I don't doubt the M10-R works for you – it (mostly) worked for me when I had one. If I still owned one when the M11 came out, I might have waited longer. But owning no M, getting the M11 over the M10-R was an easy choice for me given the reasons I sold the M10-R and M10M had to do with poor battery life, unreliable metering in rangefinder mode, difficult-to-see LCD in bright sun, and lag from hell when shooting in live view.

To be fair concerning your M11 experience, though –> Only trying it for a few snaps (in a camera store lit like a 1970's adult video store perhaps?) and with the electronic shutter is also the definition of insanity IMO, you could not cook up a better recipe for setting up a camera to fail.

That said, I circle back and agree that if the M10-R drawbacks I mentioned don't bother you, then you made the right choice.

 

7 hours ago, stout_trapdoor9 said:

The M11 is my 2nd Leica camera after having purchased a M10M a few months earlier. I came to the Leica by a rather long route of digital cameras - Nikon D50, Nikon D800, Nikon D810, Fujifilm X-T2, Nikon Z7, Leica Q2, Fujifilm X-Pro3, Fujifilm GFX 100S, Leica Q2M. I also used a Ricoh GRII and GRIII. I have sold all of them, and although I still miss the Q2M, (and to a lesser extent the Q2, both because of the weather sealing) the rest don't bother me now that they're gone - the one I loved (Ricoh GR III) I still have.

Having used a M10M, the M11 was easy enough to begin using. The files are a significant step below the GFX100S, but since I don't print beyond 60", I made the decision to sell it as I wanted a camera that I could have with me at all times. The Hasselblad X1D was a close contender but at that price point I preferred the size and lens quality available for the M platform. Funny how IBIS, while desirable in the GFX100S since it meant hand holding at medium format file sizes was possible, was not at all a factor in 35mm format. What I found is that the pictures I was using IBIS to take were not my best work. The more desirable characteristic was better performing high ISOs, and especially with the M10M, they looked really good. The Leica Q2 didn't last for me because of the artifacts that showed up ISO 3200 and higher, along with colour noise and degradation. I also didn't like the stretched edges at the outer side of the sensor. There isn't much I don't like about the Leica M11 except perhaps changing the button locations as compared to the M10M. The battery life is fantastic, the best of any mirrorless I've used by a country mile - this is a huge factor for me as battery life is the thing I like the least about the M10M, particularly in cold weather. I guess I could complain about the shutter sound when you turn the M11 on, but it's not that big a deal for me.

Most of the reviews I've seen of the M11 on YouTube or read in blogs have been by those who either don't own the camera or had possession of it for a very limited time and produced reviews in an attempt to be first to press - and therefore useless for anyone who really wants a good rundown of the camera.

And... I am a bad human being according to some, I don't own one Leica lens (although I have used quite a few) - all of mine are CV or Zeiss, my current favourites of which are the 35/2 APO Lanthar, 50/1 Nokton, and 28/2.8 Biogon. They are all fantastic with the M11. I am only two months in with the M11, but I am a very satisfied customer to date - especially with the highlight metering that was introduced recently. I wish I had the same for my M10M as I frequently shoot -2 to -3EV (or even more) based off of centre-weighted metering.

I'm surprised you say the M11 files are a significant step below the 100S since you own the CV 35 APO. My M11 + CV 50 APO files are nearly identical to files shot with the 100S + GF 63 using 35mm crop mode. I will say that the latest firmware for the M11 has greatly reduced visible noise at ISO 64 for high-magnification on-screen viewing. On the previous firmware, even low ISO shots were showing fine noise after my edits. I do miss the 4:3 image ratio of the GFX and the glorious 100mp full 44x33 files. But I don't miss carrying (lugging) that kit around at all.

 

4 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

@setuporg My post about complainers who never actually used an M11 was not made with you in mind.  Apologies if you took it otherwise.

I went back and looked, and I did miss your post #34 about the e-shutter that wiggles.  That is a legitimate issue; I will have to do some research on that one before committing my hard earned wheel barrow full of shekels to the M11. 

I know one could just use the mechanical shutter instead, but I'm wondering if certain shutter speeds cause the squiggly lines with the electronic shutter?  Or is it all shutter speeds that do that?

No issues when using mechanical shutter. You only get wiggles with e-shutter for stationary subjects if you have poor shooting techniques (which sometimes I do have).

 

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

The rolling shutter effect occurs when the scene is not stationary enough. As the sensor is read slowly (top to bottom?), if the scene changes before the readout is completed, there will be distortions. The effect is independent of the selected shutter speed.

Only an issue with the electronic shutter. I know you know that, but some readers might assume otherwise.

Edited June 16, 2022 by hdmesa

[stout_trapdoor9]

11 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I'm surprised you say the M11 files are a significant step below the 100S since you own the CV 35 APO. My M11 + CV 50 APO files are nearly identical to files shot with the 100S + GF 63 using 35mm crop mode. I will say that the latest firmware for the M11 has greatly reduced visible noise at ISO 64 for high-magnification on-screen viewing. On the previous firmware, even low ISO shots were showing fine noise after my edits. I do miss the 4:3 image ratio of the GFX and the glorious 100mp full 44x33 files. But I don't miss carrying (lugging) that kit around at all.

I really liked the GFX100S, but as you say the amount of extra kit needed (along with filters) just made it too big. I do notice a difference in the files - but it wasn't enough to make me decide to stay with the Fujifilm.  It was actually harder giving up my X-Pro 3 as that was just the perfect documentary camera.  And yes, the 4:3 image ratio was awesome - I also liked having so many pixels that shooting native cinematic ratio or 1:1 still meant the ability to make massive prints.

[Herr Barnack]

19 hours ago, stout_trapdoor9 said:

..Most of the reviews I've seen of the M11 on YouTube or read in blogs have been by those who either don't own the camera or had possession of it for a very limited time and produced reviews in an attempt to be first to press - and therefore useless for anyone who really wants a good rundown of the camera...

+1.

With regard to the M11, the 3/97 rule applies, and in spades:  3% of what is written on the intergooglewebnet about Leica cameras and lenses is useful. The remaining 97% is outright blackberry infused bird droppings (perhaps the Leica boutiques could manufacture and sell tee shirts bearing that axiom).

@stout_trapdoor9 Your review is a part of the 3%.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Mike Rawcs]

On 6/9/2022 at 5:15 PM, hdmesa said:

The mechanical stapler shutter sound is my least favorite part of the M11. Leica may further dampen the shutter with the M11-P. But they could improve the M11 considerably by adding EFCS via firmware. It's ludicrous that the SL2/SL2-S and M11 do not have it.

With regards to the M11 shutter, can someone please explain how the shutter operation (and hence the shutter sound) differs from any other mirrorless camera? I've not tried the M11 as-yet.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Mike Rawcs said:

With regards to the M11 shutter, can someone please explain how the shutter operation (and hence the shutter sound) differs from any other mirrorless camera? I've not tried the M11 as-yet.

The only way it differs is most mirrorless cameras have EFCS (electronic front curtain shutter) set as the default. This mode is quieter because it requires fewer shutter movements. The M11 does not have EFCS, only mechanical and electronic. If you set any other mirrorless full frame camera to use the mechanical shutter, the shutter movements are the same; however, the M11 shutter mechanism is simply louder. It's much louder and less refined than the mechanical shutter sound of my R5. I assume that something specific to the M11 is to blame – less sound-insulating construction of the body itself, the design of the M11 shutter required for the small available space, etc.

[Olaf_ZG]

You are all talking that the sound is so loud that I need to wear earplugs when firing the shutter. 
 

listen to a old rolleiflex or hasselblad, and then tell me how loud the shutter is.

regarding weddings and other stuff where one ought to be silent, don’t worry, some aunt or uncle will take an image or two as well with the phone with the fake sound set to the max. Any m (even 8 or 9) will be more silent…

Edited June 16, 2022 by Olaf_ZG
Grammar

[NorK]

1 hour ago, Olaf_ZG said:

You are all talking that the sound is so loud that I need to wear earplugs when firing the shutter. 
 

listen to a old rolleiflex or hasselblad, and then tell me how loud the shutter is.

regarding weddings and other stuff where one ought to be silent, don’t worry, some aunt or uncle will take an image or two as well with the phone with the fake sound set to the max. Any m (even 8 or 9) will be more silent…

I have to say I agree. I’ve had my M11 for 4 days and I find it very quite. It’s doesn’t seem louder than my Z6, it’s certainly quieter than my ex D750 and D6.
I often shoot acoustic music shows and rely on the electronic shutter, but I think I could get away with the mechanical shutter of the m11. it’s not only the loudness but the frequencies, it’s the first time I find a shutter noise « sexy ».

[lct]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

the M11 shutter mechanism is simply louder. It's much louder and less refined than the mechanical shutter sound of my R5

I have no experience with the R5 but my silver M11's shutter is simply the quieter among my DRF, DSLR and mirrorless cameras with only one exception so far my little Panasonic Lx100. As far as M cameras are concerned, my M240 and M8.2 are beaten hands down. Same for my digital CL and Fuji X-E2. I have not my Sony A7r2 at hand but i'm pretty sure it is the same. Bottom line, when i read the word "loud" about the M11 i wonder if i own the same camera. As i said here or elsewhere, i am in e-shutter mode on all my digital cameras but one, the M11 and it is only due to the quietness of its shutter. FWIW. 

[Mike Rawcs]

4 hours ago, hdmesa said:

The only way it differs is most mirrorless cameras have EFCS (electronic front curtain shutter) set as the default. This mode is quieter because it requires fewer shutter movements. The M11 does not have EFCS, only mechanical and electronic. If you set any other mirrorless full frame camera to use the mechanical shutter, the shutter movements are the same; however, the M11 shutter mechanism is simply louder. It's much louder and less refined than the mechanical shutter sound of my R5. I assume that something specific to the M11 is to blame – less sound-insulating construction of the body itself, the design of the M11 shutter required for the small available space, etc.

Thank you, hdmesa, I've seen 'EFCS' in other posts but didn't know what the acronym stood for! It makes sense now.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, lct said:

I have no experience with the R5 but my silver M11's shutter is simply the quieter among my DRF, DSLR and mirrorless cameras with only one exception so far my little Panasonic Lx100. As far as M cameras are concerned, my M240 and M8.2 are beaten hands down. Same for my digital CL and Fuji X-E2. I have not my Sony A7r2 at hand but i'm pretty sure it is the same. Bottom line, when i read the word "loud" about the M11 i wonder if i own the same camera. As i said here or elsewhere, i am in e-shutter mode on all my digital cameras but one, the M11 and it is only due to the quietness of its shutter. FWIW. 

Of the recent cameras I've owned, here's a list from quietest to loudest when used in mechanical shutter modes (except Q/Q2, which is a leaf shutter):

1. Q/Q2 (I imagine the X1D cameras are similar having leaf shutters as well)
2. R5/R6
3. SL2-S
4. M10/P/R
5. M11
6. GFX 100S
7. GFX 50S/R
8. 5D series (DSLR)

So it's not the loudest, but its loudness combined with the long ca-chunk-lunk mechanical stapler sound is not as satisfying as the M10 and analog M variants (simple "click") and is more distracting in use than the R5 or SL2-S, which are both better dampened.

It's not stopping me from using the M11, but I'm saying my experience using the M11 would be more enjoyable if it were not as loud and/or if we had EFCS, which would shorten the perceived duration of the shutter sound by about half.

Edited June 16, 2022 by hdmesa

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And the deafening cacophony from the shutter is a disadvantage when? It's only the photographer that can hear it, and nobody else cares if they do. The nicest shutter sound is the reassuring clunk from a film Nikon, make that noise once and everybody in a quite room 'gets it' and nobody bothers to notice thereafter, in the meantime people do respond to 'voyeur mode' and the guy hovering in the shadows.

[lct]

46 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Of the recent cameras I've owned, here's a list from quietest to loudest when used in mechanical shutter modes (except Q/Q2, which is a leaf shutter):

1. Q/Q2 (I imagine the X1D cameras are similar having leaf shutters as well)
2. R5/R6
3. SL2-S
4. M10/P/R
5. M11
6. GFX 100S
7. GFX 50S/R
8. 5D series (DSLR)

So it's not the loudest, but its loudness combined with the long ca-chunk-lunk mechanical stapler sound is not as satisfying as the M10 and analog M variants (simple "click") and is more distracting in use than the R5 or SL2-S, which are both better dampened.

It's not stopping me from using the M11, but I'm saying my experience using the M11 would be more enjoyable if it were not as loud and/or if we had EFCS, which would shorten the perceived duration of the shutter sound by about half.

"Sounds"  subjective too as i would rate the M11 above the SL2S. Some people hear better high frequencies, others lower ones. Some people prefer shorter sounds, others longer ones, etc. What seems (is?) sure anyway is that the M11 shutter sound is barely audible to anyone but the photographer.