Not a very positive take on M11 by Overgaard - says it will not be a classic

[roma]

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15 hours ago, pgk said:

Well, I think that it does. IF this is the route Leica are going to take with the M, then given the price point, the M as a simple rangefinder is no longer a viable option for what it delivers. I can buy far more capable EVF cameras for a fraction of the price and I don't see paying out vast sums simply to have a rangefinder and to use M lenses. Sadly it is a departure which for me is in the wrong direction and is placing the M camera in a high priced, betwixt or between position. I have competent EVF cameras and don't need or want EVF features in an M. What I want is a simple rangefinder which offers a true alternative to other cameras on the market and not at the ludicrously high prices being charged. As a working photographer they no longer represent any sort of viable return. So, if Leica continue to diverge the M line away from its roots then I am no longer prepared to play their game and pay the silly prices to do so, and will sadly move away from the M system. I do not feel that I should have to pay an absolute premium for a rangefinder and M lenses, good as they are, are no longer ahead of the game in terms of what they deliver.

Yes, there are definitely plenty of options for high tech cameras that can do everything and do it so much better than an M. This is why I use them more than an M for work, even though they are bigger and heavier. 

All I really wanted was a faster operating M10 with a better sensor and better battery life. I really believe that Leica will be able to sell enough cameras with every new iteration if they just update these kinds of basic things. Even a much better sensor (not just more pixels) will do the trick, I think. I’m definitely not shelling out 9 grand for the M11. I don’t get it.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

The VAST majority of M11 owners should set the camera to 18MP and leave it there.

Just like pretty much every phone takes a higher pixel count and outputs a 12MP file. That's not a problem but the M11 is a disaster!......

Shooting at 60MP and complaining the files aren't pixel sharp don't make sense if the output is only ever going to be a 4K monitor.

If non-printing photographers could just get over their predjudices the M11 makes a fine 18MP camera. One of the best ever.

Gordon

[hdmesa]

26 minutes ago, aristotle said:

Hi hd,

  I quoted you, but really was more generically speaking to IBIS and M and the expressed desire for IBIS in the M.  Definitely agree regarding in-lens IS for BIF, and  definitely agree that most folks (including me) are fine with 24mp or less for most of their shooting (though I'm happy to have 42 currently, and wouldn't throw 60 out of bed if I found myself sleeping next to her...)

  While I understand that some (not meaning you) like to have 1:1 magnification on-screen at 60mp look sharp, that's the equivalent of something like 8 feet wide with a 100dpi screen and I can't imagine that Leica would need to add IBIS to satisfy that need in the market.

Thanks for that. I agree with what you're saying. And I don't think Leica will add IBIS to the M unless they can do so without making the body any larger.

In looking at M photos on this forum, I do see more still shots than action or street, so I think IBIS would be very helpful for the average M shooter, especially if Leica thinks 60mp is now the new minimum resolution.

Unfortunately for many who love the optical finder, I think the slide toward an EVF-based M12 with IBIS in inevitable and unavoidable. The only saving grace may be if Leica produces two M-types simultaneously for the M12.

 

[Kwesi]

17 minutes ago, harmen said:

Exactly.  There is nothing about the M11 that would make it an EVF camera with a RF.  It is fully optimized to be a rangefinder and on top of that allows for live view or attaching an EVF.  There is not a single choice in the design that would - in my view - be different if it had no ability to attach an EVF.  The electronic shutter would still be an advantage even if only ever using it as a rangefinder (which is how I use it).  The light metering is still more capable reading off the sensor.  Etcetera.  Worries about what the M12 may bring does not make the M11 any more ‘EVF’ or ‘between’.

Sweet mother of god! Someone is actually making sense here   

No offense to all the others here who aren’t freaked out by the M11.  I own one. I don’t own the visoflex. I don’t shoot in live view. I put my eye to the rangefinder, focus, click and lo and behold I get a photo. Just like old times.
Cool thing is now I get to do this and use evaluative metering for the first time on an M. And it’s very nicely implemented. 
Perhaps it was always nicely implemented but I couldn’t use it before on my m240 or m10 since I don’t use live view. 

[trickness]

9 hours ago, Sailronin said:

Given the "Digital rot" and knowing that at some point in the future the camera will no longer be repairable (at least with OEM parts) I don't count any digital camera as a "Classic".  Classic to me implies generational functionality as well as any break though in design i.e. Leica M3, Sinar P,  Hasselblad 500, Nikon F. Anything else is just a nice camera which may or may not have value into the future.  (At least value until the electronics die and it becomes a paperweight)

I think to define any kind of "classic" often has little to do with long term usefulness - a Model T or a Ferrari 250 GTO is regarded as a classic but neither have "generational functionality" in 2022. 

Generally speaking, a "classic" is something that has a significant impact at the time it is released, and is remembered fondly long after that moment. Whether or not it even still works. 

I'm not suggesting that the M11 is or isn't going to be considered a classic - its way to early too say that, and we at least need to see additional variants of the platform hit the market (M11M, M11-P), etc). Sadly these days it's hard to regard anything as a "classic", because there are too many spoiled little brats who have the best tools the world has ever seen and still manage to do nothing but complain about how their photos of brick walls, pets and moving children aren't sharp enough 🥸

Use the camera every day and if it is dependable, doesn't get in the way of what you want to create, and makes you want to use it, then to me, that's a classic.

Edited March 4, 2022 by trickness

[Sailronin]

2 hours ago, trickness said:

I think to define any kind of "classic" often has little to do with long term usefulness - a Model T or a Ferrari 250 GTO is regarded as a classic but neither have "generational functionality" in 2022. 

Generally speaking, a "classic" is something that has a significant impact at the time it is released, and is remembered fondly long after that moment. Whether or not it even still works. 

I'm not suggesting that the M11 is or isn't going to be considered a classic - its way to early too say that, and we at least need to see additional variants of the platform hit the market (M11M, M11-P), etc). Sadly these days it's hard to regard anything as a "classic", because there are too many spoiled little brats who have the best tools the world has ever seen and still manage to do nothing but complain about how their photos of brick walls, pets and moving children aren't sharp enough 🥸

Use the camera every day and if it is dependable, doesn't get in the way of what you want to create, and makes you want to use it, then to me, that's a classic.

Even a Model T or Ferrari 250 GTO is only a classic if it still runs, otherwise it's just a junk car.

[Jeff S]

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38 minutes ago, Sailronin said:

Even a Model T or Ferrari 250 GTO is only a classic if it still runs, otherwise it's just a junk car.

Sorry, David, but no.  Only 36 250 GTOs were built, and I can assure you that if you had one, running or not, it would be a classic worth a fortune.  Even more if its history and provenance were particularly noteworthy.  In fact, in the recent collector market, ‘barn finds’ can be more desirable when left unrestored. With a higher production car like the model T, condition will affect value, but a classic is still a classic.

Jeff

Edited March 4, 2022 by Jeff S

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Sailronin said:

Even a Model T or Ferrari 250 GTO is only a classic if it still runs, otherwise it's just a junk car.

Even a Yugo is a classic in somebody's eye :).

[jake-leica]

Overplaaid is in the business of selling super cheaply made Chinese lens shades.  And sometimes even deliver them.  Otherwise though, how's his opinion important to anyone?

[Hanno]

On 3/4/2022 at 1:32 AM, hdmesa said:

especially if Leica thinks 60mp is now the new minimum resolution.

 

I believe that it is not Leica’s view.

Just reading their spin on the M11 in the latest LFI (2.2022 February/March English Edition, pages 78-84, article signed by Holger Sparr), it is said that apart from “photographers determined  to only shoot at maximum resolution” (which includes myself btw), then “for everyone else, we recommend using the mid-level resolution as your standard option, and only switch to the highest level when presented with exceptional “once-in-life-time” kind of scenes”.

I hope it is ok to quote LFI with the proper references. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Hanno

[lct]

59 minutes ago, Hanno said:

I believe that it is not Leica’s view.

Just reading their spin on the M11 in the latest LFI (2.2022 February/March English Edition, pages 78-84, article signed by Holger Sparr), it is said that apart from “photographers determined  to only shoot at maximum resolution” (which includes myself btw), then “for everyone else, we recommend using the mid-level resolution as your standard option, and only switch to the highest level when presented with exceptional “once-in-life-time” kind of scenes”. 

Not sure if LFI can speak for Leica but in all modesty its view is similar to mine in that the M11 is not made to be used handheld at 60MP, at least for those who don't have or don't pretend having hands as steady as a tripod. This does not mean that Leica would choose lower resolutions for the M12 and following M bodies though. As i understand it, Leica's view is that cameras can be used also with a tripod reason why they offer a choice between different resolutions. Smart move i don't know yet but i see no reason why the possible arrival of IBIS in the M12 would change anything to that. BTW it is recommended to switch IBIS off when using a tripod.

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, Hanno said:

I believe that it is not Leica’s view.

Just reading their spin on the M11 in the latest LFI (2.2022 February/March English Edition, pages 78-84, article signed by Holger Sparr), it is said that apart from “photographers determined  to only shoot at maximum resolution” (which includes myself btw), then “for everyone else, we recommend using the mid-level resolution as your standard option, and only switch to the highest level when presented with exceptional “once-in-life-time” kind of scenes”.

I hope it is ok to quote LFI with the proper references. 

My point was about the effect it would have on many buyers if Leica never makes another M below 60mp. Resolution switching isn’t giving me a lower resolution sensor any more than the crop mode on the Q gives me a 50mm lens.

[SrMi]

17 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

My point was about the effect it would have on many buyers if Leica never makes another M below 60mp. Resolution switching isn’t giving me a lower resolution sensor any more than the crop mode on the Q gives me a 50mm lens.

What is the relevant difference between a lower resolution sensor and the M11’s resolution switching?

[Kwesi]

With the M11 Leica has created a camera that allows users to simply and easily customize its core functions to suit a particular user's needs.

They don't expect us to change parameters for every shot or every other week or what have you.

For example, I shoot at 60mp with evaluative metering and only use the rangefinder. That is my set up. That is my M11.

This allows me to work the same way I did with my M9's, M240 's, M246 and M10P.

My feeling is that for a few very vocal people who haven't actually used the M11, the possible number of ways to use the M11 gives them the feeling that Leica has lost its way. In truth the M11 is simply and truly, and foremost an M.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

What is the relevant difference between a lower resolution sensor and the M11’s resolution switching?

A native lower resolution sensor provides lower cost, increased speed, even better battery life. With the M11's lower resolutions, you're at the mercy of Leica's decisions on how to downscale and sharpen the images. For example, we know in Photoshop there are multiple ways to downsample an image – one method is better at preserving overall sharpness, one method preserves edge sharpness, and yet another is better at preserving subtle gradient transitions. Of course there are benefits to downsampling, like lower noise and increasing DR, but that doesn't change the flip side of the coin.

I'm not saying that the M11's lower resolutions are not a welcome and helpful feature – they certainly are. But I also don't think it's unreasonable for some to hope for an M11 variant with the SL2-S sensor.

[SrMi]

9 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

A native lower resolution sensor provides lower cost, increased speed, even better battery life. With the M11's lower resolutions, you're at the mercy of Leica's decisions on how to downscale and sharpen the images. For example, we know in Photoshop there are multiple ways to downsample an image – one method is better at preserving overall sharpness, one method preserves edge sharpness, and yet another is better at preserving subtle gradient transitions. Of course there are benefits to downsampling, like lower noise and increasing DR, but that doesn't change the flip side of the coin.

I'm not saying that the M11's lower resolutions are not a welcome and helpful feature – they certainly are. But I also don't think it's unreasonable for some to hope for an M11 variant with the SL2-S sensor.

It is theoretically possible for Leica, like most other manufacturers, to screw up the in-camera downsizing. However, all tests and reports indicate that is not the case. The M11's downsized output is similar (sometimes better) than what the smaller resolution sensors produce (I am not talking about the new high DR/low ISO, which gives M11 an image quality boost).
The only reason for a smaller resolution sensor would be the cost reduction. 
Despite many bugs ;-), just because it is possible to do it wrong doesn't mean that Leica did it wrong.

[evikne]

Doesn't the M11 processor have to chew on the data from all 60 MPs, also at lower resolutions, before it downscales the image? I guess this has to slow down the speed a bit compared to a native lower resolution sensor?

Edited March 5, 2022 by evikne

[Chaemono]

I changed my mind. M10-P colors (red) at higher ISO (640 and above) look kind of washed out in comparison to higher resolutions sensors. I don’t want a 24 MP M11-S any longer. I want an M12 with the M11 sensor and with IBIS. I just compared the first picture taken with the M10-P and the 75 Noctilux here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-232Tmz/i-mj2D8kJ with a similar picture taken with the Z7 and the 75 Noctilux (Z7 at ISO 400, M10-P at ISO 640) in untouched, rendered in Preview RAW files. The Z7 reds look richer OOC. Unfortunately, I messed up the framing in the couple of Z7 pictures I took (I can post in case anyone is interested). 

[hdmesa]

23 minutes ago, SrMi said:

It is theoretically possible for Leica, like most other manufacturers, to screw up the in-camera downsizing. However, all tests and reports indicate that is not the case. The M11's downsized output is similar (sometimes better) than what the smaller resolution sensors produce (I am not talking about the new high DR/low ISO, which gives M11 an image quality boost).
The only reason for a smaller resolution sensor would be the cost reduction. 
Despite many bugs ;-), just because it is possible to do it wrong doesn't mean that Leica did it wrong.

I wasn't saying it was "possible for Leica to do it wrong", I was saying when you downsample an image, there are many ways to do it – some benefit sharpness, others benefit smooth gradients. You can't have both, though you can have a mix perhaps. And we don't have a native BSI Leica sensor at 36mp to compare it with to know for sure. For me, I'm not so concerned about sharpness, I'm more concerned about gradient smoothness. I would like to see the 60mp versus downsampled sky gradient smoothness compared when really pushing the files in post, which is where these things can really show their differences. One of the benefits of the current BSI sensors is the wonderful gradient smoothness and how well that translates to pliability in post. Maybe Leica more heavily weighted their downsampling toward preserving smooth gradients over sharpness, which is what I would prefer. But I've not seen anyone test this yet.

In any case, the differences from native to downsampled do exist. Will they make a difference for you or me? Maybe, maybe not. 

12 minutes ago, evikne said:

Doesn't the M11 processor have to chew on the data from all 60 MPs, also at lower resolutions, before it downscales the image? I guess this has to slow down the speed a bit compared to a native lower resolution sensor?

Yes. Faster performance and even better battery life with a native lower-resolution sensor. But how much and how meaningful, we may never know.

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[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I wasn't saying it was "possible for Leica to do it wrong", I was saying when you downsample an image, there are many ways to do it – some benefit sharpness, others benefit smooth gradients. You can't have both, though you can have a mix perhaps. And we don't have a native BSI Leica sensor at 36mp to compare it with to know for sure. For me, I'm not so concerned about sharpness, I'm more concerned about gradient smoothness. I would like to see the 60mp versus downsampled sky gradient smoothness compared when really pushing the files in post, which is where these things can really show their differences. One of the benefits of the current BSI sensors is the wonderful gradient smoothness and how well that translates to pliability in post. Maybe Leica more heavily weighted their downsampling toward preserving smooth gradients over sharpness, which is what I would prefer. But I've not seen anyone test this yet.

In any case, the differences from native to downsampled do exist. Will they make a difference for you or me? Maybe, maybe not. 

Yes. Faster performance and even better battery life with a native lower-resolution sensor. But how much and how meaningful, we may never know.

I would also like to see more comparisons between L-DNG, M-DNG, and S-DNG. However, it may not be fair AFAIK as higher resolution files are typically easier to post-process (more data available, although the difference is often too small to be noticeable). 

If Leica decides to use a smaller resolution sensor in an M11-S, it would likely be the more recent 33MP sensor.