Is the M10 the last “Real” Leica ?

[ynp]

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15 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Sorry to keep repeating the distinctions, but with both the M11 and the M10 (with the EVF), you get centre-weighted, spot and multi-field metering off the sensor.

Precisely. For the rare occasions when I need a matrix metering or I want to check the position of the polariser , I just press one button.  Simple and efficient. 

[charlesphoto99]

Thing is, the world seems awash in disposable income right now, so it doesn't behoove Leica to make a 'cheaper' M - people will just pony up the extra grand or two and buy the 11/12 or go to the second hand market which, once dealer police holds come off, is going to be awash in traded in M10's etc real soon here. 

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, ynp said:

Precisely. For the rare occasions when I need a matrix metering or I want to check the position of the polariser , I just press one button.  Simple and efficient. 

The RF/LV switching is a bit clumsy with M10-s, IMO. The nice thing with M10 is that one can quickly change between center-weighted and spot/multi-field metering with a button switch. The bad thing is that one must use power-draining LV to use multi-field metering. In RF mode, M11 uses a power-saving method to meter off the sensor.

[ynp]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

The RF/LV switching is a bit clumsy with M10-s, IMO. The nice thing with M10 is that one can quickly change between center-weighted and spot/multi-field metering with a button switch. The bad thing is that one must use power-draining LV to use multi-field metering. In RF mode, M11 uses a power-saving method to meter off the sensor.

Yes. I always carry a spare battery with my M10-r and m9s. 

[Printmaker]

On 2/1/2022 at 2:05 AM, jaapv said:

Especially the mono version. The successors never managed to capture that tonality and look, especially if coupled with a  vintage lens.

It is my ultimate never-sell camera.

Alas, after 3 sensor replacements on Leica CCD cameras, I got nervous and traded my M9M on a SL. What a mistake! Not the SL but rather letting go of the M9M.

[Printmaker]

But I do find the M10 to be the perfect M camera. I'll add a M10 Monochrom to my kit one day because the M10 series are the last real Leica M cameras.

[MikeMyers]

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I've now got the M10, and I can't see any point in getting anything different.  The M10 (for me) is as good as it gets - or maybe as good as I want/need.   When the M10 came out, the reviews implied this, and that's how I felt, and still feel.  I also enjoy my DSLR cameras, but have no interest in the new models without a mirror.  I want to see the "real", "live" image, and the Leica is the best at this.  

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb MikeMyers:

I've now got the M10, and I can't see any point in getting anything different.  The M10 (for me) is as good as it gets - or maybe as good as I want/need.   When the M10 came out, the reviews implied this, and that's how I felt, and still feel.  I also enjoy my DSLR cameras, but have no interest in the new models without a mirror.  I want to see the "real", "live" image, and the Leica is the best at this.  

From my point of view you are absolutely right. I have the Q2, S3 and M 10-R. I got my M in October 2020 and a little bit later the new APO-Summicron 35 mm (plus Visoflex for near distances). The consequence: My Q2 stays in the box, some times I`m using my big ship S3, but mainly I take the mentioned M combination with me. It it´s not only in remembrance of my old M3, but also the old way of manuel photography I prefer. And even verry important, it`s the perfect camera for an old boy like me. I really don`t need the features of the M11.

Regards Hans

[MikeMyers]

If Leica were smarter, they'd re-introduce the M10, just the way it was when first released.  Preferably at an affordable price.  That way those of us who feel as we do, would still have that chance when buying a new camera.  

Unfortunately, if I understand correctly, what I'm asking for is now impossible.  I want the "real" brass body, and I want it in black.  I don't think Leica can do that any more.  On the positive side, for me, that's what I've already got, so I'm all set - but others who might want it are out of luck, unless/until Leica finds a new way to make black bodies with brass, not aluminum.

[adan]

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

unless/until Leica finds a new way to make black bodies with brass, not aluminum.

Well, black paint has always worked. Misc. special editions, plus M9 standard black, plus countless Japanese film cameras over the decades (Nikon SP, Canon rangefinders, Nikon Fs, Canon F-1, Nikon FM/FE series, Pentaxes, you name it.....). People pay extra for it.

https://www.cameraquest.com/nrfblsp.htm

https://www.cameraquest.com/nfbl64.htm

https://www.cameraquest.com/f1high.htm

https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Pentax_Spotmatic

I've kinda liked the "industrial feel" of black chrome - standard on M5 through M7, plus M8 and M10. It reminded me that my camera was a tool, not a piece of jewelry.

But I also get that the plating process involves some nasty chemistry.

[tomconte]

6 hours ago, adan said:

But I also get that the plating process involves some nasty chemistry.

I don't buy Leica's line on that. Do you have any idea how nasty the ICs are to make? You literally use poisons. If leica were really so concerned, they would stop making everything with electronics. 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by tomconte

[adan]

Sure - but Leica does not manufacture ICs that I know of. 

They buy them from the experts (e.g. Maestro III CPU is manufactured by Fujitsu in Asia somewhere; M11 sensor from Sony (apparently), but previously (Typ 240, M10 variants) CMOSIS Belgium (fabrication in Switzerland, last I heard - perhaps Awaiba CH, but the way conglomerates buy and juggle smaller companies, who knows?).

The plating and other fine metalwork takes place much closer to home - possibly at their tame machine shop right next door (Uwe Weller Feinwerktechnik, Am Leitz-Park 3, Wetzlar). But perhaps the Portugal factory.

https://www.weller-feinwerktechnik.de/inhalt/home.html

Less a question of "concern" than "liability" under the rules of country A vs. country G, I expect.

[MikeMyers]

8 hours ago, adan said:

Well, black paint has always worked. Misc. special editions, plus M9 standard black, plus countless Japanese film cameras over the decades (Nikon SP, Canon rangefinders, Nikon Fs, Canon F-1, Nikon FM/FE series, Pentaxes, you name it.....). People pay extra for it.

It's easy to make it "black", but people complain that using aluminum instead of brass, it is too light, and doesn't "feel" like a Leica.

[adan]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

people complain that using aluminum instead of brass, it is too light, and doesn't "feel" like a Leica

Just ignorance and lack of experience.

I have a 1962 Leica M2 film body - it weighs 530 grams (per my lab scale).

The black M11 body weighs - 530 grams (per Leica's specs).

A "classic Leica M" (or as the title says, a "real Leica") should weigh (and feel like it weighs) around 530-580 grams, depending on features included.

Light weight is itself a key feature of rangefinders, (it's why you see 1960s news pros happily carrying three Leicas at once) that has been sadly missing from recent digital Ms.

Edited March 17, 2022 by adan

[MikeMyers]

Wikipedia has the weight of an M3 as 580 grams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_M3

[adan]

Clockwork self-timer the M2 doesn't have. Along with other features.

But hey, if you want to persuade yourself that a 640g silver M11 is somehow more "classic" or "real" than a 530g black M11, it's a free country.

[Reddy]

39 minutes ago, adan said:

Clockwork self-timer the M2 doesn't have. Along with other features.

But hey, if you want to persuade yourself that a 640g silver M11 is somehow more "classic" or "real" than a 530g black M11, it's a free country.

My film M2 has a self timer

[adan]

Some do, some don't.

[NigelG]

Going against the flow maybe...given that all (OK most) leica silver lenses are no longer silver chromed brass but silver anodised aluminium  (see other threads) could we have a lightweight silver anodised M11 - and a matching Visoflex??

I only have chrome Ms (and S/Steel 😎) and mainly chrome lenses and would love a silver anodised M11 (et al) going forward so I could match newer anodised lenses to the body finish and get the weight saving offered by the black M11.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[MikeMyers]

Maybe it's me going "against the grain"?  If my Leica M10 weighed as much (little) as my Fuji X100f, or most of my other cameras, I would miss the "feel" that to me has become part of using my Leica cameras.   Maybe I'm just too old fashioned, or maybe just too old, period.  

I've gotten to where I prefer black, with the logo covered up with electrical tape.  The camera no longer looks like a target for theft - if anything, it looks more like an antique.  

As a technical masterpiece, the new M11 leaves the old M10 in the dust, with all the new features and all the new capability.  

 

I'm just a dinosaur, stuck on what I think I know.  If someone were to offer me a choice of the new Nikon Z9, or the latest D6 I would go for the D6 despite all the new excitement about mirrorless.  The M11 reminds me of the M5, which I've never seen, or held.  It was supposed to be excellent, but it didn't fit the image of what is a Leica.  To me, the M11 is pushing the limits more than I'm comfortable with.  It's like the new Visoflex - looks great, bigger view with more resolution, made from metal designed to look more pleasing, but to accomplish all this they had to leave out the GPS geotagging.  I'd rather have the geotagging, given my choice.

For me, to be a "real" Leica, the cameras need to match the long series of Leica M film cameras, which I have trouble telling apart from each other - they mostly look (to me) the same, and they pretty much work the same way too as far as I know.  The M10 was the first digital Leica that "fit" that mold, having gone on a diet since the M8 and M9.  

 

......and I accept that I am an old fuddy-duddy stuck in time, and that the M11 is certainly just as "real" as the previous models, and the M12 and so on will be based on the M11, not the M10.  I started to get excited about the M11, but that faded away.  I'd prefer what I have right now, the stock, standard, original, M10.  It does what I want/need.  

(Had Leica been able to create a viewfinder, that with the flip of a lever could show what it does now, or a "digital" view such as from the Fuji cameras, that might tempt me enough to make the upgrade, but apparently it can't be done, while retaining the current rangefinder system.  Maybe next year, or the next....