tsleica Posted December 9, 2022 Share #101 Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) i-phone video sux...real bad... Sigma FP video is great..and FP is smaller than M..and FF too..and a fraction of the price.. Truthfully..I would just like Sigma to put a rangefinder on the FP and I would be in heaven! Like thats gonna happen.. Folks sayin i-phone will do for video..well..same for single photos.. just use your i-phone and toss your M out.. The M needs to have video..just bury in the menu for the people that dont wanna see it..and sell more cams to people that do. They can do it..Sigma did. They just dont want to. They want you to buy 2 completely different camera systems..and dont want the M system to cannibalize the SL. If the M does video..who needs the SL..lol... So some people end up leaving Leica behind.. And instead of having 1 bird in the hand..they think they are going to get 2 in the bush..but end up with nothing instead. Edited December 9, 2022 by tsleica 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 9, 2022 Posted December 9, 2022 Hi tsleica, Take a look here No video with M11 - this is expected in 2022, right?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
geotrupede Posted December 9, 2022 Share #102 Posted December 9, 2022 On 12/8/2022 at 2:22 AM, Erato said: [...] If you're taking video seriously, Red Camera or Arri Alexa are fine, but they are not for the consumer market. [...] If you're looking for a compromise solution here, SL2s, [...] might fit your needs, but it's a bit bulky when compared with smartphones. SL2s can create very good footage, there are some excellent examples on the web. I would not be so dismissive of it because it is not a high end production model by arri/panasonic/sony. Also it is less bulky than those for sure... not to mention the price/ and if price matters the most, and functionality, then the panasonic s series are very good. Yet, M could have a simple moving picture recording feature, basic. nothing fancy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted December 9, 2022 Share #103 Posted December 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, Musky said: Saying “just put video on an M” is really oversimplifying a really complicated problem. You do video. Fine. But what kind of video? Because now Video people will ask for more and more. So what’s next? A video centric M with less megapixels and a photography centered M with more megapixels. how about heat? Can it handle it? How many minutes before it shuts off due to heat? What about speed? The M11 can’t keep up with UHS-II speeds. So what sort of cards do we need? And do we need dual cards? with video also comes IBIS. How many stops of stabilization? then we need LOG. What kind? f-log f-log 2? Something else? 4K? 8K? Full width? Or will it crop? 60p? then we need a full HDMI out. 6K RAW video out. then it’s video so the video people will say we need a video LCD. Will it flip or tilt flip? How about the capture? It’ll have to be 10 h.265 bit and 8 bit h.264. How many things do we want to put inside an M and keeping it small? Isn’t it easier to just get the SL3 and mount your M glass? you forgot 50% of the video. You need a mic port. and how are you pulling focus on the rangefinder? I suppose your subject will always be in the middle. I am with you, on the q2 I never use the video option, why ? it is not a video camera, what should I do with 8bit video with no mic or ibis. you better use iPhone with Filmic Pro in log. you can do a full movie with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted December 9, 2022 Share #104 Posted December 9, 2022 9 hours ago, tsleica said: i-phone video sux...real bad... it is because you have not use it correctly, just camera app does not cut it! but it would be the same on an M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 9, 2022 Share #105 Posted December 9, 2022 21 minutes ago, Musky said: Saying “just put video on an M” is really oversimplifying a really complicated problem. You do video. Fine. But what kind of video? Because now Video people will ask for more and more. So what’s next? A video centric M with less megapixels and a photography centered M with more megapixels. how about heat? Can it handle it? How many minutes before it shuts off due to heat? What about speed? The M11 can’t keep up with UHS-II speeds. So what sort of cards do we need? And do we need dual cards? with video also comes IBIS. How many stops of stabilization? then we need LOG. What kind? f-log f-log 2? Something else? 4K? 8K? Full width? Or will it crop? 60p? then we need a full HDMI out. 6K RAW video out. then it’s video so the video people will say we need a video LCD. Will it flip or tilt flip? How about the capture? It’ll have to be 10 h.265 bit and 8 bit h.264. How many things do we want to put inside an M and keeping it small? Isn’t it easier to just get the SL3 and mount your M glass? That's like saying that a M11 is deficient for stills because it doesn't have AF, IBIS or an EVF. Adding video doesn't have to mean adding Red or Arri functionality. The M240 video worked well within appropriate limitations. Heat management is, I guess, the main technical issue: forum wisdom (which does not necessarily relate to reality) is that it was left out of the M10 because the smaller, more tightly packed body couldn't dissipate the heat. The TL2 could take good video, with limitations, but the body got very hot after 20-30mins. The CL video was too limited even for my needs. The Sigma fp takes excellent video in a tiny body - which has a heat sink, no physical shutter and no viewfinder. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 9, 2022 Share #106 Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Musky said: Yes it does mean that. Because there’s always asking for more and more and more. It will never end with “it can record good enough video” Just like it’s not enough that the M can make beautiful photos. It now needs an EVF and IBIS and video. It never ends. It’ll just be shitty good enough I guess video. The problem is trying to make the M into something that it isn’t. It would be shitty good enough video in the same way that the M takes shitty good enough stills. It wouldn't have the tools to do feature films any more than the M has the tools to do sports photography or BIF. But the quality of video clips you could get from a M240 - for the right subject, lighting and requirement - was determined by the lens and sensor, not by all the extras. It would have been excellent for photojournalism, short stories, promo shots, amateur performance, visual art and just as a visual notebook. Different viewpoints. Stopping any change because it might lead to more change would not be my preference. But I doubt I'm in Leica's target market for the digital M any longer. Edited December 9, 2022 by LocalHero1953 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke_Miller Posted December 9, 2022 Share #107 Posted December 9, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) All of the still cameras I shoot with regularly are video capable. And while I rarely use that feature, some of my most memorable images were short video clips taken with them. 99% of my video work is with dedicated video cameras. Typically, I'm either shooting video or stills, but not both. I think my video experience has sensitized me to situations were a video clip better captures the subject than a still image. One of the reasons I hold onto my M240. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted December 9, 2022 Share #108 Posted December 9, 2022 58 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said: All of the still cameras I shoot with regularly are video capable. And while I rarely use that feature, some of my most memorable images were short video clips taken with them. 99% of my video work is with dedicated video cameras. Typically, I'm either shooting video or stills, but not both. I think my video experience has sensitized me to situations were a video clip better captures the subject than a still image. One of the reasons I hold onto my M240. If a future M were to have video, what would be for you the basic video specifications necessary for professional use? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matted Posted December 9, 2022 Share #109 Posted December 9, 2022 3 hours ago, Musky said: Saying “just put video on an M” is really oversimplifying a really complicated problem. You do video. Fine. But what kind of video? Because now Video people will ask for more and more. So what’s next? A video centric M with less megapixels and a photography centered M with more megapixels. how about heat? Can it handle it? How many minutes before it shuts off due to heat? What about speed? The M11 can’t keep up with UHS-II speeds. So what sort of cards do we need? And do we need dual cards? with video also comes IBIS. How many stops of stabilization? then we need LOG. What kind? f-log f-log 2? Something else? 4K? 8K? Full width? Or will it crop? 60p? then we need a full HDMI out. 6K RAW video out. then it’s video so the video people will say we need a video LCD. Will it flip or tilt flip? How about the capture? It’ll have to be 10 h.265 bit and 8 bit h.264. How many things do we want to put inside an M and keeping it small? Isn’t it easier to just get the SL3 and mount your M glass? The Q2 answers all of your questions... it doesn't have microphone inputs, flippy screen, dedicated controls for video, IBIS, dual cards, HDMI, L-LOG, etc etc etc yet in a pinch it will shoot nice 10-bit h.265 footage that will blow away whatever you're shooting on a phone. You can use other apps for better files than phone app, sure, but good luck holding, panning, and pulling focus as well as you can with Q2 in a classic 3 point grip using EVF. Maybe y'all can do better than I can in this regard and if so, a tip of the cap to you. I don't think anyone wants the M to be a dedicated cinema camera... at least I certainly don't. When I want to shoot something serious I am obviously going to use the right tool for the job. All I want is the flexibility to shoot a basic video so when my wife says "can you shoot a video" on trips or at family functions, etc, I can easily do so without having to always have another camera to make up for the M's shortcomings. It is extremely liberating to bring just a single M with me with a lens or two, and this is the only thing that prevents me from doing so in some scenarios with my M11. I don't need a lot... I would even be happy with 1080P and a recording limit time of 5 or 10 minutes. That being said I am with those that likes the M11's form factor so if I had to trade off some body thickness to deal with heat dissipation or whatever to get video, I probably wouldn't do it. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matted Posted December 9, 2022 Share #110 Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Kwesi said: If a future M were to have video, what would be for you the basic video specifications necessary for professional use? At least for me, basic minimum (for professional use) would be the Q2 specs but with the addition of L-Log profile as an option, and at least 60p up from 29.97p of Q2; C4k/UHD/HD 4:2:2 10-Bit, All-I codec. That being said, for professional use it could only ever be used for b-roll or as a b camera unless it had HDMI out and microphone input I would say. Edited December 9, 2022 by matted 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matted Posted December 9, 2022 Share #111 Posted December 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Musky said: You be the judge .. and this is hand held Yes you can do all that with filmic pro (pulling focus and all that). And you can get an OSMO gimbal for the iPhone. Interesting video, thanks. iPhone video still looks like crunchy, overly sharpened/processed small sensor phone video to me, but I know that can be tamed somewhat using apps. Maybe I'll try Filmic pro out and see what it's like. I'm not sure how pulling focus will be any different than regular phone app but we shall see. On that note I love pulling focus with Q2 and tabbed M lenses as you can do it easily with 1 finger while fully supporting the camera and without adjusting your grip. My only gripe with M lenses for video is I'm always running up against their close focus limits, which isn't a problem with Q2 or phones obviously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted December 9, 2022 Share #112 Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) i-phone video sux..lol...crunchity crappity crap..horrible stuff..try it at mid day and get your vomit bag out.. Sigma FP has no heat issues... If man were meant to fly..he would have wings...hahaha.. Keep that M crippled real good Leica...there are plenty of us that wouldnt touch it w/o bare min video specs...no bisquit for L..bad bad dog! The M limps along as always....forever... Edited December 9, 2022 by tsleica Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke_Miller Posted December 9, 2022 Share #113 Posted December 9, 2022 3 hours ago, Kwesi said: If a future M were to have video, what would be for you the basic video specifications necessary for professional use? I don't believe an M could be designed to produce "professional" video and still be an M. Recording to card is limiting except for short clips and demands a lot more processing power than exporting via HDMI. So less important than the video specifications are the inputs/outputs needed. HDMI out for video, microphone and headphone jacks, as well as provision for external power. Add a battery sufficient for reasonable recording times plus cooling to prevent overheating and we have a Franken-M that no one would want. To my mind what Leica did with the M240 is the best approach, which maintained still photography as the camera's primary purpose My concept of a future video enabled M would have it record to card and have an optional microphone (similar to the Leica Microphone Adapter Set #14634 for the M240 connecting via the EVF connection). A function button would shift displays and shutter action between stills and video similar to the SL-2. Video specs might be UHD 422 10 bit at 30 fps. Probably a 30 minute recording limit. Just a basic capability for a stills shooter who has an unplanned opportunity for an video clip of a special moment or event. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 9, 2022 Share #114 Posted December 9, 2022 5 hours ago, Kwesi said: If a future M were to have video, what would be for you the basic video specifications necessary for professional use? It would be illuminating to turn this question round: "in a future M, what would be the basic still photo specifications necessary for professional use?" I guess it would include: fast AFc, reliable tracking, face recognition, dual card slots, flippy screen, accurate EXIF data, GPS, tethering, Profoto flash sync. 😁 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted December 9, 2022 Share #115 Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) Its really a shame..because those fast small Leica M lenses work great for regular video usage. I use em on my FP and S5 all the time. Wide open or close for great visuals. Dont need all the bells and whistles..just a vid switch and you are done. If they put in unlimited time and a solid 4K. This would be actually useful to a lot of people. Some are even going back to the M240 for this as there is no other choice. I'm thinking about this (getting an M240) as well for 2023 just as a nice change of pace from being anchored to a screen all day. And most who want great sound are not going to use the crap in cam mic and sound files but a Zoom recorder or similar and match up in post. No need for auto focus or ibis either. Just basic video. Make it as simple as possible as this is what the M is known for. It wont be a "PRO" video cam..it would just be a photo centric RF with a video function. Is that asking too much? But is that gonna happen... Noooo...waaaayyy..lol. But... If they actually put video in the M.. I would be a payin customer. At a bare minimum..they could reissue the MP 240 w/ its slightly bigger body..upgrade the video to 4K..call it the Classic M..and have done w/it...and if they grew some balls..add a flippy screen that can turn completely around so if you didnt want to use it you didnt have to see it at all and it will function like an MD 262. Edited December 9, 2022 by tsleica Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted December 10, 2022 Share #116 Posted December 10, 2022 I am sure you can see the 8bit limitations and 1080p challenge in slow motion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 10, 2022 Share #117 Posted December 10, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Musky said: Great reply. And this is exactly my point. If you really did video you’d need this and etc etc etc. I think you missed my point. Why do you have higher expectations of the M as a video camera compared to as a still camera? A M is capable of taking both superb photos and video without having the most advanced functionality or use envelope for either. It doesn't have to have all the functionality and tools of a pro videocam, just as the M misses all those other still functionality and tools - and remains highly desirable. The most basic argument is: if one can use the M for pictures of babies, pets, families, friends, why shouldn't you be allowed to use it for video clips of the same? Edit. In the end, of course, this is down to Leica's judgement about their target market and what is technically possible. With the M10 (no video, no silent shutter), I reckoned I was no longer in their target market, and the M11 (high res with no IBIS, limiting its handheld capability) confirmed this. That's fine with me - if Leica tried to keep me happy they might lose the traditional segment of the market. Edited December 10, 2022 by LocalHero1953 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 10, 2022 Share #118 Posted December 10, 2022 Just now, Musky said: Nice. One more for sony 😀 Q2, SL2-S, Sigma fp. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 10, 2022 Share #119 Posted December 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, Musky said: Seems like you already have your tool set. Time to stop posting about killing the rangefinder. Enough already. Go take a picture. Ah.......another opinionated newbie throwing their weight around telling others what they want and what to do. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted December 10, 2022 Share #120 Posted December 10, 2022 I have no interest in video and wish no camera had it. 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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