Why I will not be getting a M11...

[SrMi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Just now, CGarrard said:

Hi SrMi,

I never said it was silly. Someone else did. I'd encourage you to read the entire exchange.

That said...

The shutter isn't open before you turn the camera on. It opens when you turn it on, unlike most mirrorless cameras. So, that means you hear a clunk of the shutter opening and there is also a slight delay as a result of the camera coming to life because it has to read information off the sensor. So the clunk and delay, I'm presuming, is why that other person called it silly.

However, I've been informative of why Leica did that. It's all about them abandoning the traditional metering method that has been in every Leica M camera with automatic metering that came before it.

I am sorry for the irrelevant discussion that my reply to you caused—so silly :). 
Yes, M11 works differently than most mirrorless cameras by keeping the shutter closed when powered down. Maybe they do it to protect the sensor when changing the lens, and perhaps the shutter cannot be kept open without power. I would be happy if Leica could leave the shutter open when powered down.
However, there is no perceptible delay involved, as has been reported by many owners and testers, not at the start-up nor the shutter. The clunk is undoubtedly there, but one can get used to it if willing.
Yes, M11 has abandoned the traditional metering method of M cameras. However, abandoning traditions is not automatically a bad thing.

[Alistairm]

Just now, setuporg said:

To play a devil's advocate and summarize, er, analogize:

1.  A $5 quartz watch is equal to or significantly better than a Patek Philippe in every single way that matters for keeping time, including a better interval generator, more functions at being at least as fast.

2.  it looks and feels different (subjective if it matters)

Until the battery runs out. Honestly, Leica should only sell MA bodies, and then the Luddite fan base will be happy!

[davidvanchu]

The M is an emotional camera. If it became another lifeless mirrorless camera with no rangefinder and electronic only shutter, I think many of us would agree that it would no longer elicit that emotion that we have all come to love. Sound and feel is important for a lot of us, we love the tactile feedback of mechanical operations, and this change in the cadence of the shutter (close,open,close,open vs open,close), while it doesn't result in any difference to the resulting photograph, it changes the experience of taking the photograph, and experience is a large part of why M cameras still exist today.

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

This is a more accurate summary: ""Since the M11 doesn't meter off the face of the shutter curtain like it has been done on all M's with automatic metering in the past, it's breaking a big tradition one, and secondly forcing the use of the sensor to do all the work which causes extra delay, shutter flappery, and more wear on the shutter unit itself."

While theoretically possible, can you point to any measurement that a perceptible delay exists? There is plenty of evidence to the opposite.

[setuporg]

1 minute ago, Alistairm said:

Until the battery runs out. Honestly, Leica should only sell MA bodies, and then the Luddite fan base will be happy!

There are some solar- or body heat- powered ones...

[CGarrard]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

I am sorry for the irrelevant discussion that my reply to you caused—so silly :). 
Yes, M11 works differently than most mirrorless cameras by keeping the shutter closed when powered down. Maybe they do it to protect the sensor when changing the lens, and perhaps the shutter cannot be kept open without power. I would be happy if Leica could leave the shutter open when powered down.
However, there is no perceptible delay involved, as has been reported by many owners and testers, not at the start-up nor the shutter. The clunk is undoubtedly there, but one can get used to it if willing.
Yes, M11 has abandoned the traditional metering method of M cameras. However, abandoning traditions is not automatically a bad thing.

I'm not here to say it's bad or good for anyone. That is for individual M shooters to decide for themselves. However it is worth making it clear what effects the new design has on the shooting experience so that would be buyers are informed before they drop 9K on a camera, as opposed to finding out after. Knowledge is power!

[Alistairm]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Well said David. 

That I completely agree with. The attempts to portray the M11 as technically inferior are, on the other hand, amusing.

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

I'm not here to say it's bad or good for anyone. That is for individual M shooters to decide for themselves. However it is worth making it clear what effects the new design has on the shooting experience so that would be buyers are informed before they drop 9K on a camera, as opposed to finding out after. Knowledge is power!

Can we agree that the new design does not cause perceptible delay at startup and shutter-lag (as verified by Jono, Sean Reid, elmars)?

Edited January 14, 2022 by SrMi

[Olaf_ZG]

There are many reasons why I wouldn’t buy the m11, but there is only one reason why I would buy it: the normal ability to do long exposures.

for this, i have the gfx but I would love to eliminate systems and lenses so to me, this is the trigger to buy…

[CGarrard]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

Can we agree that the new design does not cause perceptible delay at startup and shutter-lag (as verified by Jono, Sean Reid, elmars)?

Nope. See minute 3:03 of this video. Chris knows a thing or two about cameras. He times the delay:

 

[glogulus]

I'm also going to stick to my m10-r and m10m for now. I could probably overlook any of the issues (which seem small and minor to me) raised in this thread if I loved the images coming out of the camera. Maybe it's the new sensor, and maybe technically the images are brilliant and beautiful, but to me they don't excite me as much as the images from the M10-R. Which to me, is much more similar to to the m9 than the m10 ever was. Totally my own subjective opinion. It's also possible that the m11 images can be processed to look similar to previous digital Ms but maybe this was the intended "look" for the images from this new camera. Which is also fine.

Edited January 14, 2022 by glogulus

[CGarrard]

Let me be clear, just because I've posted many times about the subject of the M11's shutter (having to explain the issue over and over till it was understood), this is not an attack on those who have purchased the camera, or on the camera itself. It's not about attacking anything. It's about understanding the behavior of the camera and why. No ulterior motive here. Just sharing knowledge.

Personally I love M's (I own three, and have owned more than that!), so I was excited to see the new M11. Lets not let feelings be dragged into an objective discussion of camera design. Lets state the facts and let others decide for themselves. Lets keep it civil. I'm not attacking anyone here. So please don't take it like that. 

 

[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

Nope. See minute 3:03 of this video. Chris knows a thing or two about cameras. He times the delay:

 

He measures the delay, but does not compare it  to M10-R. I do not think there is much difference in startup time between M10-R and M11. In both cases the delay is significant.

Any pointers that the shutter lag has increased?

Edited January 14, 2022 by SrMi

[CGarrard]

3 minutes ago, SrMi said:

He measures the delay, but does not compare it  to M10-R. I do not think there is much difference in startup time between M10-R and M11. In both cases the delay is significant.

Any pointers that the shutter lag has increased?

If there is a delay there, does it matter that other cameras have a delay or not? You asked me to tell you that there is no delay. So I found evidence of delay for you so you wouldn't think I was making anything up here :). 

I know my M9P, M8, M-P Typ 240 have zero delay when using classical metering. That much I can tell you :). If the M11 had the option of classical metering, there would be no delay. The option has been omitted.

 

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, CGarrard said:

If there is a delay there, does it matter that other cameras have a delay or not? You asked me to tell you that there is no delay. So I found evidence of delay for you so you wouldn't think I was making anything up here :). 

I know my M9P, M8, M-P Typ 240 have zero delay when using classical metering. That much I can tell you :). If the M11 had the option of classical metering, there would be no delay. The option has been omitted.

 

I misunderstood you. I thought you were attributing an increased delay to the new shutter mechanism. However, since delays are similar between the traditional shutter in M10R and the new shutter in M11, that assumption seems incorrect.
The M9 has a shutter lag, and it has been measured. However, the shutter lag of most cameras, including M9 and M11, is so small that it has virtually no impact considering the typical reaction time of an athlete :). No negative impact by the new shutter mechanism is observable.

[CGarrard]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

I misunderstood you. I thought you were attributing an increased delay to the new shutter mechanism. However, since delays are similar between the traditional shutter in M10R and the new shutter in M11, that assumption seems incorrect.
The M9 has a shutter lag, and it has been measured. However, the shutter lag of most cameras, including M9 and M11, is so small that it has virtually no impact considering the typical reaction time of an athlete :). No negative impact by the new shutter mechanism is observable.

The M11's 2 second delay at startup is a first for an M camera, in that, there's no option to eliminate that lag by using classical metering as a menu item. Since the hardware was changed (the shutter curtain metering), thus, there's no option in the menu.

[Tailwagger]

35 minutes ago, Alistairm said:

Leica should only sell MA bodies, and then the Luddite fan base will be happy!

As a luddite residing in MA, I can say with certainty, that while we of the Commonwealth are both resourceful and creative, I'm afraid that if they don't ship some lenses as well, we might be forced to dust off our muskets. 

[neekon]

24 minutes ago, Alistairm said:

So, to summarise:

1. the M11 is equal to or significantly better than the M10R in every single way that matters for producing photographs, including a better sensor, better metering and being at least as fast; 

2. the shutter sounds different (subjective if it matters). 

 

So yes and no

1) yes the M11 is the better mirrorless camera to take pictures with than an M10R.  The sensor is much improved, the metering is technically better.  Its speed also remains to be seen, it is faster in some ways and slower in other ways.  

2)The shutter sounds different is not the issue.  Its been explained many times what the issue is, but no one seems to want to get it.   The issue is the camera is always in live view/evf mode.  It meters off the sensor.  In theory this is better as the sensor will meter better than the off-curtain method.   However in practice this was implemented poorly.  In a normal mirrorless camera the sensor is always exposed with the shutter being held or defaulted to its open state.  When you turn the camera on, the sensor turns on, and the camera is ready to shoot immediately.  With the way the M11 works, the shutter is closed until you turn the camera on, at that point the shutter opens and the camera is ready to shoot.  This not only adds an audible clunk, but also a delay in start up.   The triggering of the shutter mechanism when taking a photo might be theoretically faster, but feels and sounds slower.  Now it might be a significantly faster exposure, and you dont miss that "moment".  But as @davidvanchu mentioned, the M is an emotional camera.  M users are emotional about using the M, using an M illicit's an emotional response from its users.  I use my M because love the feel, love using it.  To fundamentally change one of the core aspects of the camera, its a bit jarring.  Now change isnt always bad, if they had had a hybrid system with the M11, keep the older metering, but maybe default to the newer.  That way people have the option to use it the older ways.  That couldve worked.  But as it stands the M11 is not the camera a lot of us who are concerned thought it was going to be.  I want the better battery.  I want the better sensor.  I want the better SD card speeds.  I want the newer menus.   I want the newer processor.   All things that are huge improvements.  I do not want the newer metering.   

15 minutes ago, davidvanchu said:

The M is an emotional camera. If it became another lifeless mirrorless camera with no rangefinder and electronic only shutter, I think many of us would agree that it would no longer elicit that emotion that we have all come to love. Sound and feel is important for a lot of us, we love the tactile feedback of mechanical operations, and this change in the cadence of the shutter (close,open,close,open vs open,close), while it doesn't result in any difference to the resulting photograph, it changes the experience of taking the photograph, and experience is a large part of why M cameras still exist today.

Agreed.  It has changed how i feel using the camera, and it changed it negatively.  

13 minutes ago, Alistairm said:

Well said David. 

That I completely agree with. The attempts to portray the M11 as technically inferior are, on the other hand, amusing.

The M11 is not a technically inferior camera.   Virtually every aspect of the camera has been made better.  There are a few key areas where it is not better.  Thats the problem

12 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Can we agree that the new design does not cause perceptible delay at startup and shutter-lag (as verified by Jono, Sean Reid, elmars)?

There i absolutely a perceptible delay.  I noticed it just early today.  I took my dog for a walk.  Went to turn the camera on as i bring it to my eye, and heard the "clunk" of the shutter opening, after it got to my eye.  My M10R never had that issue, it was ready to shoot the moment it was at my eye.   That is a delay.  Now you might say "but the clunk means the camera is ready to shoot, so it was ready to shoot" to which i respond, "you might be right, but my perception is that its not ready, and is slower".  When i am out shooting and i heard "clunk---clunk" vs "clunk". it might be faster to capture the image, but the perception is, its slower.   

As i stated above, and have stated before.   I couldnt care less that they added a new metering system.  Its about time parts of the M were modernized.  I do care that they did it in such a drastic and jarring way, within one generation.  Give the users that want the advantages of the newer system, the option to use the older metering system.  Thats all I am asking for.  Make the new system the only option on the M12 when you have figured out how to do it right.  

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, CGarrard said:

The M11's 2 second delay at startup is a first for an M camera, in that, there's no option to eliminate that lag by using classical metering as a menu item. Since the hardware was changed (the shutter curtain metering), thus, there's no option in the menu.

Yes, there is no option, but does it matter for the lag? How much longer is the shutter lag and startup time when compared to M10-R?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[CGarrard]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Yes, there is no option, but does it matter for the lag? How much longer is the shutter lag and startup time when compared to M10-R?

So we keep moving the goal post on this topic I see. I'm not comparing the M11 to the M10-R, but I do suspect, since you asked, that the M10-R set to "classic" metering mode would be much less, almost instantaneous like other M cameras have come before the M11.

Satiated yet?