Why I will not be getting a M11...

[Tailwagger]

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4 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

Personally, I'd prefer the shutter to stay closed.  The upgraded metering system isn't of much interest to me, I find an RBG histogram is more important.

Sure, but you ain't getting a histogram with the shutter closed.  Only after the fact in playback.  

[davidvanchu]

6 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Yes, he didn't write it, but CGarrard replied to me on my reply to you.

Still like to hear from you or CGarrard about a mirrorless camera that does not keep the shutter open when the camera is turned on.

The M8, M9, M typ 240, M10, M10-P, and M10-R are all examples of mirrorless cameras that do not keep the shutter open while the camera is turned on ;).

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[Ouroboros]

6 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Yes, he didn't write it, but CGarrard replied to me on my reply to you.

Still like to hear from you or CGarrard about a mirrorless camera that does not keep the shutter open when the camera is turned on.

Who said a mirrorless camera doesn’t?  What has that got to do with what I said in the context of a Leica M?  Unless you know of any others that do apart from the M11. 
 

[CGarrard]

22 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Sorry, I could not find it. Could you please point me to a mirrorless camera that does not keep the shutter open while the camera is on?

You wrote: This unbelievably silly aspect of the shutter opening  and staying open whilst the camera is switched on...

See above.  Yeah I didn't write that

As to this: "Could you please point me to a mirrorless camera that does not keep the shutter open while the camera is on?" 

I addressed your point in a previous post, actually two :). What happens with the M11 is that the shutter is put to a closed condition when you turn it off. Then when you turn the camera on, it reopens the shutter automatically. So you hear two additional clunks there compared to other mirrorless cameras that keep the shutter OPEN after you  have it off. It's always open until you make an exposure (two clicks, not 4 total). 

With the M-P Typ 240, you can set the camera to classical metering, which then meters off the face of a closed shutter, so when you make an exposure you hear two clicks, opening and closing. Also the camera doesnt open the shutter when you turn it on (keeping noise and delay down), or when you turn it off (making yet another click). Having that option with the M-P Type 240 is an advantage. 

Since the M11 doesn't meter off the face of the shutter curtain like it has been done on all M's with automatic metering in the past, it's breaking a big tradition one, and secondly forcing the use of the sensor to do all the work which causes extra delay, shutter flappery, and more wear on the shutter unit itself.

Capish?

[kivis]

I have two "ancient" Leica M-P 240's that I use for all my professional work, commercial, weddings, etc. The M11 looks great but my rigs are doing just fine. In any case the M Mount Lenses are the real stars, both Leica and Voigtlander brands.

[CGarrard]

2 minutes ago, Artin said:

I have no Idea what the heck is the issue with the shutter staying open, this has to be the stupidest gripe I have heard and we do hear a lot. Its simple Turn camera on when using it and turn it off when changing the lens. simple done. 

The fact is that the metering is 100% better than any other previous M ever made. and regardless of it staying open or closed it is more  responsive than any other digital M ever made. 

Plain Fact it is by far the best digital rangefinder camera made up to this date. weather it is worth trading up, or purchasing is a personal choice. but as far as what Leica produced for today this is as good as it gets. 

 

Artin, see above. Not really a gripe, or stupid at all. It's a legitimate step backwards for Leica. 

[Ouroboros]

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1 minute ago, CGarrard said:

Artin, see above. Not really a gripe, or stupid at all. It's a legitimate step backwards for Leica. 

Thanks for pointing it out.  I couldn’t be arsed to reply to him. 

[CGarrard]

2 minutes ago, Artin said:

Step back to what I don't understand, the metering on the M9, M240, M10R was nothing but hit and miss 50/50. ,, the 11 is 90--95% bang on in any lighting condition.

It works. as a photographic tool it work, I could care less about sound 

I pointed the step backwards out clearly in another post. Take the time to consider what I've taken the time to explain, then you'll understand

[neekon]

4 minutes ago, Artin said:

I have no Idea what the heck is the issue with the shutter staying open, this has to be the stupidest gripe I have heard and we do hear a lot. Its simple Turn camera on when using it and turn it off when changing the lens. simple done. 

The fact is that the metering is 100% better than any other previous M ever made. and regardless of it staying open or closed it is more  responsive than any other digital M ever made. 

Plain Fact it is by far the best digital rangefinder camera made up to this date. weather it is worth trading up, or purchasing is a personal choice. but as far as what Leica produced for today this is as good as it gets. 

 

The "issue" isn't the shutter staying open.  It has never been about the shutter staying open.  It has been about it being a step back in the way the camera operates in rangefinder mode.  
The metering is also not 100% better than any previous M.  There are reports the new meter overexposes, might not be calibrated correctly on some cameras.   So when the meter is saying its good, its actually over exposed.  I have not had that issue with previous Ms, i could sort of predict how it was going to meter. 

Plain Fact is, it is not "by far the best digital rangefinder ever made". It is a huge step up from previous Ms in some ways.  it is also a huge step back from previous Ms in other ways.  
The Best digital rangefinder wouldve been the M11 with a better, more refined  shutter and metering mechanism.  Or not completely abandoning the old one.  

[SrMi]

16 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

See above.  Yeah I didn't write that

As to this: "Could you please point me to a mirrorless camera that does not keep the shutter open while the camera is on?" 

I addressed your point in a previous post, actually two :). What happens with the M11 is that the shutter is put to a closed condition when you turn it off. Then when you turn the camera on, it reopens the shutter automatically. So you hear two additional clunks there compared to other mirrorless cameras that keep the shutter OPEN after you  have it off. It's always open until you make an exposure (two clicks, not 4 total). 

With the M-P Typ 240, you can set the camera to classical metering, which then meters off the face of a closed shutter, so when you make an exposure you hear two clicks, opening and closing. Also the camera doesnt open the shutter when you turn it on (keeping noise and delay down), or when you turn it off (making yet another click). Having that option with the M-P Type 240 is an advantage. 

Since the M11 doesn't meter off the face of the shutter curtain like it has been done on all M's with automatic metering in the past, it's breaking a big tradition one, and secondly forcing the use of the sensor to do all the work which causes extra delay, shutter flappery, and more wear on the shutter unit itself.

Capish?

I see, you have taken my post out of context. Let me rephrase my question: 'why is it silly that the shutter is open when the camera is turned on?'

I am not arguing about anything else.

[CGarrard]

10 minutes ago, neekon said:

The "issue" isn't the shutter staying open.  It has never been about the shutter staying open.  It has been about it being a step back in the way the camera operates in rangefinder mode.  
The metering is also not 100% better than any previous M.  There are reports the new meter overexposes, might not be calibrated correctly on some cameras.   So when the meter is saying its good, its actually over exposed.  I have not had that issue with previous Ms, i could sort of predict how it was going to meter. 

Plain Fact is, it is not "by far the best digital rangefinder ever made". It is a huge step up from previous Ms in some ways.  it is also a huge step back from previous Ms in other ways.  
The Best digital rangefinder wouldve been the M11 with a better, more refined  shutter and metering mechanism.  Or not completely abandoning the old one.  

Yep, and I've also summed it up this way:

"Since the M11 doesn't meter off the face of the shutter curtain like it has been done on all M's with automatic metering in the past, it's breaking a big tradition one, and secondly forcing the use of the sensor to do all the work which causes extra delay, shutter flappery, and more wear on the shutter unit itself."

Hopefully we can raise some awareness on this so people can decide for themselves if this will be an issue or not.

[SrMi]

21 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Who said a mirrorless camera doesn’t?  What has that got to do with what I said in the context of a Leica M?  Unless you know of any others that do apart from the M11. 
 

In post #81 you wrote:

This unbelievably silly aspect of the shutter opening  and staying open whilst the camera is switched on...

It seems that I misunderstood what you meant.

[CGarrard]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

I see, you have taken my post out of context. Let me rephrase my question: 'why is it silly that the shutter is open when the camera is turned on?'

I am not arguing about anything else.

Hi SrMi,

I never said it was silly. Someone else did. I'd encourage you to read the entire exchange.

That said...

The shutter isn't open before you turn the camera on. It opens when you turn it on, unlike most mirrorless cameras. So, that means you hear a clunk of the shutter opening and there is also a slight delay as a result of the camera coming to life because it has to read information off the sensor. So the clunk and delay, I'm presuming, is why that other person called it silly.

However, I've been informative of why Leica did that. It's all about them abandoning the traditional metering method that has been in every Leica M camera with automatic metering that came before it.

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

Yep, and I've also summed it up this way:

"Since the M11 doesn't meter off the face of the shutter curtain like it has been done on all M's with automatic metering in the past, it's breaking a big tradition one, and secondly forcing the use of the sensor to do all the work which causes extra delay, shutter flappery, and more wear on the shutter unit itself."

Hopefully we can raise some awareness on this so people can decide for themselves if this will be an issue or not.

Preferably this should be discussed by people who own an M11 and have used it for a while.

[neekon]

Just now, CGarrard said:

Yep, and I've also summed it up this way:

"Since the M11 doesn't meter off the face of the shutter curtain like it has been done on all M's with automatic metering in the past, it's breaking a big tradition one, and secondly forcing the use of the sensor to do all the work which causes extra delay, shutter flappery, and more wear on the shutter unit itself."

Hopefully we can raise some awareness on this so people can decide for themselves if this will be an issue or not.

I hope we can raise awareness on it as well.  Get raise enough concern to get to the higher ups at Leica.  
I want to be on record saying, i do NOT have an issue with the new metering mode being an option.  It would be a welcomed change to previous Ms.  I say even include the option to have it available in rangefinder mode, so it works as is currently.   I DO have issue with the removal of the off curtain metering as an option.   ALL i would want, and i would happy as a clam, is for them not to have taken such a drastic change in one generation.   Keep the status quo here just a lil longer.  That way people who want the other improvements that the M11 offer, but dont want the new metering option, can be happy and people who are happy with the new metering modes can also be happy.  The M11 feels like it was designed with EVF shooting in mind, no rangefinder shooting.  And that is unfortunate.  

[CGarrard]

Just now, SrMi said:

Preferably this should be discussed by people who own an M11 and have used it for a while.

It has been. And you don't need to use it for a while to understand the technical aspects of its design. Everyone who has used it has experienced this because it's a design implementation.

Are you understanding the issue here? 

[Alistairm]

So, to summarise:

1. the M11 is equal to or significantly better than the M10R in every single way that matters for producing photographs, including a better sensor, better metering and being at least as fast; 

2. the shutter sounds different (subjective if it matters). 

 

[CGarrard]

Just now, neekon said:

I hope we can raise awareness on it as well.  Get raise enough concern to get to the higher ups at Leica.  
I want to be on record saying, i do NOT have an issue with the new metering mode being an option.  It would be a welcomed change to previous Ms.  I say even include the option to have it available in rangefinder mode, so it works as is currently.   I DO have issue with the removal of the off curtain metering as an option.   ALL i would want, and i would happy as a clam, is for them not to have taken such a drastic change in one generation.   Keep the status quo here just a lil longer.  That way people who want the other improvements that the M11 offer, but dont want the new metering option, can be happy and people who are happy with the new metering modes can also be happy.  The M11 feels like it was designed with EVF shooting in mind, no rangefinder shooting.  And that is unfortunate.  

Yep agreed 100%. As an option. Just like it is in the Typ 240 and M10 variants. 

However with the removal of the metering off the shutter curtain on the M11, it's nearly impossible for them to fix. M12 is the fix.

They just took it too far with the M11. Two breaks in tradition, the floor plate, and metering off the shutter curtain face.

So, yeah, I like my M-P typ 240 more than ever!

[CGarrard]

2 minutes ago, Alistairm said:

So, to summarise:

1. the M11 is equal to or significantly better than the M10R in every single way that matters for producing photographs, including a better sensor, better metering and being at least as fast; 

2. the shutter sounds different (subjective if it matters). 

 

This is a more accurate summary: ""Since the M11 doesn't meter off the face of the shutter curtain like it has been done on all M's with automatic metering in the past, it's breaking a big tradition one, and secondly forcing the use of the sensor to do all the work which causes extra delay, shutter flappery, and more wear on the shutter unit itself."

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[setuporg]

5 minutes ago, Alistairm said:

So, to summarise:

1. the M11 is equal to or significantly better than the M10R in every single way that matters for producing photographs, including a better sensor, better metering and being at least as fast; 

2. the shutter sounds different (subjective if it matters). 

 

To play a devil's advocate and summarize, er, analogize:

1.  A $5 quartz watch is equal to or significantly better than a Patek Philippe in every single way that matters for keeping time, including a better interval generator, more functions and being at least as fast (and much lighter).

2.  it looks and feels different (subjective if it matters)

Edited January 14, 2022 by setuporg