Why I will not be getting a M11...

[M9reno]

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25 minutes ago, neekon said:

its late here.  I am going to sleep. 

I am going to do more testing and using of the M11 tomorrow and hope my feelings change.  

 

Thanks.  Looking forward to your update.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, neekon said:

This last paragraph really sums things up perfectly. 

The M11 is the M10R in live view mode, all the time.  It can never ben turned off.  The shutter has to pen when the camera is turned on, has to close when the camera is turned off.   The shutter has to "close-open-close and then re-open to take a single photo. 4 movements for one photos vs 2 movements in the old system.   Now alot of this could be solved with a electronic front curtain mode which would reduce that a bit.  

You might be right, which is why ive willing to give it more of a chance.  I might fall in love with it, I might hate it even more, but there's no way to know until ive used it. 

The menu system is the least of my concerns.  The biggest and only concern I have is the new meter/shutter mechanism. 
Every other aspect of the camera I can live with or get on with.   
 

Thank you for all that you've written here, it's a bucket of cold water on the party that's for sure, but what you say is valid none the less, because it comes from your real-time, hands on, experience with the M11, albeit one of just a day or so.........But in my experience a brief moment is all it takes to know if a particular camera, or anything else for that matter, "works" for you.

I myself had some doubts about the M11, at least as far as whether I'd buy one or not, whether too I should sensibly try to be able to afford to do so come to that. I have been more than happy with the 24mp's of the M10-P and M10-D, ( going to leave my M10-M out of this, that's a whole different animal ), and have been loath to "change-up", but last week from a Leica dealer I had the offer of a pristine M10-R at considerable discount  with full Leica 24month warranty and I decided to go for that, trading in the little used M10-P in the process. That alone blunted any lingering desires for the M11 and sensibly put all of that into a holding pattern of at least a year or so just so I could unemotionally see how the M11 pans out.

That said I do applaud Leica for the continuing development of the M camera, that's very worthy and of course I wish them every possible success with the camera, it's is though not for me at this time. There's too much "stuff" in it, too many options for what I want a digital M to be, laudable though they may well be for some, just not for me. KISS.

Edited January 14, 2022 by petermullett

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[CGarrard]

Another point about the M-P Typ 240... the shutter sound. Using classic light metering mode vs. advanced makes a big difference in how the shutter sounds. Classic sounds the best to me :). Classic light metering mode uses the shutter curtain light meter, and advanced uses the sensor by basically putting the camera in live view mode (opening the shutter when you turn on the camera) without showing a live view on the screen.

The latter works in live view mode and through the rangefinder the same. However the shutter sounds more clunky, when you start up the camera and when you release the shutter, because it has to first shut the curtain, then reopen it after exposure. Changing to classic mode makes it sound more like an M9-P without the whirring motor recock. The M Typ 262 is like the M-P typ 240 in classic mode, only even quieter. 

Not sure if the M11 has any way of changing how the camera operates like the M-P Typ 240 or not. But it should :). I like the classic metering setup on the M-P typ 240 as I'm very much used to the way it meters for most street/candid work, and I like how the camera sounds. When I shoot macro or landscape, even studio, I like the live view/advanced method for more precise metering. 

You can even disable the M-P Typ 240 live view completely to use it like an M9. One of the most versatile and lovely M's out there if you want a sprinkle of technology and classic M mixed in. Leica did good with this one!

[setuporg]

This is the reason you should get every M as soon as it comes out.  I had used my M10-R since August 2021 and feel like it had a great run already.  However it looks like one would be better off keeping it in addition to M11 to decide after a thorough test whether you also need to add an M12 to them.

[bernstein1234]

Another reason I'll be keeping my M10-R. Seems like Leica has adopted a more eco-friendly approach! Rejoice M10 owners, their luxurious boxes will help steady your camera values!

 

[bernstein1234]

1 hour ago, neekon said:

This last paragraph really sums things up perfectly. 

The M11 is the M10R in live view mode, all the time.  It can never ben turned off.  The shutter has to pen when the camera is turned on, has to close when the camera is turned off.   The shutter has to "close-open-close and then re-open to take a single photo. 4 movements for one photos vs 2 movements in the old system.   Now alot of this could be solved with a electronic front curtain mode which would reduce that a bit.  

You might be right, which is why ive willing to give it more of a chance.  I might fall in love with it, I might hate it even more, but there's no way to know until ive used it. 

The menu system is the least of my concerns.  The biggest and only concern I have is the new meter/shutter mechanism. 
Every other aspect of the camera I can live with or get on with.   
 

Since you have bought it, I really appreciate your honest feedback. Honestly, my purpose of this thread is not to douse ice-cold bucket of water over potential M11 users, but just to let those who wish to purchase know of the pros and cons and the idea of owning this M11. For me, even if I have the means, I'd skip this and get the next one with IBIS, or at least when it comes in chrome/brass.

[elmars]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb neekon:

Just going to post this on both threads I am messaging on?  

No ofcourse it isn't coming back, its been physically removed from the camera,.  So yes, we have to live with it.

It feels longer, turning the camera on to the "clunk" feels to be about 2-3 seconds.  In the M10 it was less of an issue because there was no audible indicator that the camera was slow to start up, now there is.   Why can the SL2 start up instantly, but the M11(with the same processor is slower than a Digital Rebel from the early 2000s?  
So a work around the the way to get the camera to work the same way my old camera worked?  My new camera needs to be "forbid" from going to sleep to get the same responsiveness at startup that my M10 did?     

I hope I do get used to it, it would be great to have the same love for the camera you and everyone else seems to.   Would be nice not to have it though and Again, we have to live with it, seeing a running theme

It might be, it might not be.  It sounds like it isn't, it feels like it isn't, but Im sure it is.  I am sure Leica worked really hard on all the solutions and ways to make this work and instead of using a mechanism from their wildly popular SL2 series that is much better in this regard, they went with the worse more clunky solution that the M10 used.  Feels they could've worked harder on it.    I will have to check out Sean Reids sites to see what his measurements show.  My personal feeling, its slower than the M10R, by a noticeable difference.  

I might, I might not.  This rant/frustration/posting/anger is not about a shutter sound, but yes the M11 sound is much worse than the M10.  

I do hope I get used to it.  I will try it more and more as the days go on.  I bought Capture One 22, which supports it, I am looking forward to using it more.  I just wish my initial reaction and feeling toward it, were positive and not overwhelmingly negative 

Just to be clear: Shutter operation and shutter sound was better at the M10. But not faster I think. We discussed this intensly between the beta-testers and most of us agreed with this. The tests and Leica confirmed us. One or two of us were not that shure.

The sound of the M is important. I cannot change Your feelings about that. I only can say it seems to me very similar to the M10 sound but not that nice.

And of course Leica could have constructed a new shutter for the M11 to avoid the clunk when starting the camera (only then!!!!). I would have been happy about that but not about the then higher price.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, bernstein1234 said:

Since you have bought it, I really appreciate your honest feedback. Honestly, my purpose of this thread is not to douse ice-cold bucket of water over potential M11 users, but just to let those who wish to purchase know of the pros and cons and the idea of owning this M11. For me, even if I have the means, I'd skip this and get the next one with IBIS, or at least when it comes in chrome/brass.

I tend to agree that as cameras go above a certain mp size, ( 40mp's ??? ), then IBIS becomes a much more desirable option to have built in. 

[CGarrard]

8 minutes ago, petermullett said:

I tend to agree that as cameras go above a certain mp size, ( 40mp's ??? ), then IBIS becomes a much more desirable option to have built in. 

Or at least in lens IS. 

I have a Canon 5DS R, and I can tell you that you are more right than you know. Even with all the preventive measures Canon made to keep micro vibrations down, you still have to learn how to shoot it right to get the most detail out of 50mp. IS helps, electronic first curtain helps tremendously, so does a delay between the mirror going up and the shutter firing. So does a tripod :). 

[sebben]

Can some one for the love of god please post a video demonstrating  the shutter sound and action of the shutter? Bonus points if you have an M10 model to compare with. 
 

🙏
 

 

[CGarrard]

So looks like the M11 does not have the same capability the M-P Typ 240 cameras have in terms of the shutter sound. Its full time shutter curtain open metering off the sensor, no classic metering option. Bummer on that. 

"All previous M cameras with built in metering (with the exception of the M5) have metered off the shutter curtain. The M240 and M10 also metered off the sensor in Live View.

The M11 has dispensed with this, and now metering is only via the sensor, this has the advantage that the metering is much more accurate (with multi-point, centre weighted and spot metering options)."

I'll add/amend to Jono's review that the M-P Typ 240 has metering off the shutter curtain, and off the sensor in both rangefinder and live view. Best of both worlds. Amazing to me that the M11 does not have both options. Pity actually.

 

[shirubadanieru]

25 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

So looks like the M11 does not have the same capability the M-P Typ 240 cameras have in terms of the shutter sound. Its full time shutter curtain open metering off the sensor, no classic metering option. Bummer on that. 

"All previous M cameras with built in metering (with the exception of the M5) have metered off the shutter curtain. The M240 and M10 also metered off the sensor in Live View.

The M11 has dispensed with this, and now metering is only via the sensor, this has the advantage that the metering is much more accurate (with multi-point, centre weighted and spot metering options)."

I'll add/amend to Jono's review that the M-P Typ 240 has metering off the shutter curtain, and off the sensor in both rangefinder and live view. Best of both worlds. Amazing to me that the M11 does not have both options. Pity actually.

 

To be fair to the M11, LV sucks in the M240 / M10, so they definitely should not continue down that road. I literally never used LV in an M and the first thing I do is to turn it off by default just because I hate it that much. 

This aspect of the M11 actually sounds awful to me too on paper, but when I think about it a bit more, all (most?) mirrorless cameras work this way and no one complains (and for most people, they prefer them to the old DSLRs), so I think we’re overly concerned about this change when in reality it might do little / nothing to the experience of using and shooting with a Leica M. I don’t know, I’m still skeptical but I decided to not think too much about it until I actually get to try it. We’ve also had reviews from people who have been reviewing Leica’s for years and years, and this point has not come up as a complain / issue not even once, so that reassures me a bit. I’m sure if this was not implemented well someone would speak about it in the reviews or at least raise a slight concern.

[elmars]

vor einer Stunde schrieb sebben:

Can some one for the love of god please post a video demonstrating  the shutter sound and action of the shutter? Bonus points if you have an M10 model to compare with. 
 

🙏
 

 

I try in the evening (without bonus) but I am not shure if I can embed a film here.

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, sebben said:

Can some one for the love of god please post a video demonstrating  the shutter sound and action of the shutter? Bonus points if you have an M10 model to compare with. 
 

🙏
 

 

It's been posted in a separate thread

Edited January 14, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[BJohn]

4 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I know you weren't directing this at me, but the problem is that the camera can't be used in the same way as the M10R. On the M11, you can't fire off a shot without the shutter closing, opening, closing again and then re-opening.     On the M10R when in manual shutter mode, the shutter only had to open / close.

Even if the difference is imperceptible in terms of shutter lag, the sound that the shutter makes when it takes a shot has a lot to do with the user experience. 

Lots of us hated using the M10 cameras in live-view mode because it just sounded slow... rather than a 'snick' when you took a picture, you heard the shutter close, open, close, and open again. The M11 has apparently improved things here, but for those of us who hated the M10 live-view shutter sound we're a bit put off by it.

Actually that's the reason I've canceled my order. I am deeply triggered by that change. The M is about essence of photography and the decisive moment. Having an even better shutter combined with the 'oldschool' metering option would yield in an even better M10x. And what kind of shocked me was, that some reviewers stated (and I do believe they have some sort of insider knowledge) that they discussed in an endless manner whether the baseplate is going to change or not. Who needs that relict? That was bad user experience although it remained some bits of the analog era. Nobody complained about the metering / shutter change?

[BJohn]

1 hour ago, elmars said:

I try in the evening (without bonus) but I am not shure if I can embed a film here.

That would certainly be good! The truth is, although I like your review and appreciate the work of all the other reviewers! I still don't trust your gut feelings in terms of whether this is something which disturbs me - or not. And I am not willing to pay that many bucks for a camera which I may dislike by a large scale. And that alone leads to a very bad customer journey for me. Leica didn't touch that point at all in their videos. From the videos I saw, also like turning on/off the camera, I am very confident that all my fears remain to be true. Especially after knowing that they didn't change the shutter - sure you can fine-tune some parts with software!

The M camera is not about the absolute perfection when nailing a shot (other cameras or manufacturers can also deliver), it's about the feeling, passion...my M is an extension of myself. I want to be happy, not 80%, 100%. And it doesn't bother me when changing the battery for instance, but when I am using the camera. I only shoot RF, I barely use LV.

Leica is very good in some german engineering way to bring a top-notch user experience. They should remain these bits like also an option to turn off the touch screen in the menu (dunno if that was introduced in the meantime).

Maybe I am just angry that I had lots of anticipation for that camera, was stunned by the new sensor tech, thrilled to order the camera and...!

Edited January 14, 2022 by BJohn

[2M6TTLs]

4 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

To be honest, I’ve used Leica cameras for almost 10 years, from film to digital, and never had any issues with rangefinders going out of alignment, not sure what people do to get them misaligned, but that’s never been a problem at all for me across all Leica models. 

You've just been lucky. I don't do anything unusual to put it out of alignment and I take care of the camera, meaning i don't knock it about, but it has still happened. How many years you have used Leica cameras has nothing to do with it ) in my case 30 years ).When this is a real problem is when you are traveling and not able to get it serviced because it means most your shots will be out of focus especially at wide apertures.

[shirubadanieru]

1 minute ago, 2M6TTLs said:

You've just been lucky. I don't do anything unusual to put it out of alignment and I take care of the camera, meaning i don't knock it about, but it has still happened. How many years you have used Leica cameras has nothing to do with it ) in my case 30 years ).When this is a real problem is when you are traveling and not able to get it serviced because it means most your shots will be out of focus especially at wide apertures.

How do you know when it becomes misaligned without being able to check the shots? (Ie if you are shooting film or M-D). Or is this something you find out once you get the results developed / get the shots on your computer? Asking out of curiosity because I have really never encountered this nor have any of my friends who also shoot with Leicas. 

Either way I think that issue is inherent to rangefinders so there’s nothing Leica could do here but to remove it and make it an EVF, and that would be the worst thing they could ever do to the Leica M Lineup  

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

40 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

How do you know when it becomes misaligned without being able to check the shots? (Ie if you are shooting film or M-D). Or is this something you find out once you get the results developed / get the shots on your computer? Asking out of curiosity because I have really never encountered this nor have any of my friends who also shoot with Leicas. 

Either way I think that issue is inherent to rangefinders so there’s nothing Leica could do here but to remove it and make it an EVF, and that would be the worst thing they could ever do to the Leica M Lineup  

Some rangefinders are more "fragile" in this regard than others.  The pre-war Zeiss Contax II/III, for example, are notorious for rangefinders that almost never go out of alignment.  One of the reasons probably why the famous war correspondents like Frank Capra used them.  Ha, ha,  the Carl Zeiss lenses probably had something to do with it too.

You can see a mis-aligned rangefinder through the viewfinder.  The two images don't match up perfectly, they'll be either horizontally or vertically off.  If it ever happened, I guess you just shoot at small apertures, hoping DOF covers the misalignment.

Did have an M3 black out during a simple car ride, but I've never had a Leica rangefinder go out of alignment.  It can happen though, usually some "bump" is the culprit.  But I'm not banging my cameras around like a photo journalist or dropping them, except -- ha, ha, ha -- that M4 I dropped into three feet of salt water.  Repairs almost equalled the value of the camera!!!  

If I recall correctly, a relative straight forward and easy fix, but you need the tools.  Most will send their camera out to fix the alignment.

Edited January 14, 2022 by TheBestSLIsALeicaflex

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[elmars]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb BJohn:

Actually that's the reason I've canceled my order. I am deeply triggered by that change.

Give it a chance. Try it. Then You can judge. 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb BJohn:

Nobody complained about the metering / shutter change?

I did, because I knew (and told Leica so) that some would complain about the shutter and metering. My spontaneous reaction after first trying the M11 was not to buy it despite of all other desired advantages. But I got used to the change soon. 

I don´t want to convince You, the M10R is a phantastic camera, picture output is very similar to the M11. But if You are interested in some advantages of the M11, try the camera. Leica will give You one for testing. Or we can meet if You live near Düsseldorf.