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Why I will not be getting a M11...


bernstein1234

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5 minutes ago, neekon said:

It might feel quicker to access the SD-Card, but it definitely a terrible UI decision.  Who thought removing the battery was the best solution to also removing the SD-Card?  Seems idiotic.  

It feels the focus peaking when using live-view manual focus is much more simplified over the M10R, no level, no perspective control.  I haven't full gone over it though.  

I disagree.  The M11 feels like a toy.  It feels like an entry level toy.  The M10R BP I have feels significantly more refined and upmarket.  

9000$ is about 6000$ too much for the M11

Yes, you have not spend enough time with your M11. Not having the full manual available, doesn't help. Of course, there is level and grid. The menus were streamlined across various models (SL2, Q2), and that is a good thing.

Perspective Control is the only feature missing. I remember that PC was bashed, especially by 'traditionalists' :(.

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Just now, setuporg said:

Just like Steven said, a polarizing camera!

I disagree.  It is not polarizing. it is downright bad.  
Leica should be ashamed of this camera.  It should not have been released.  Honestly, it feels like it needed more time being designed and tested, from actual users and not fanboys and people who just gush over anything Leica.  

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2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Yes, you have not spend enough time with your M11. Not having the full manual available, doesn't help. Of course, there is level and grid. The menus were streamlined across various models (SL2, Q2), and that is a good thing.

Perspective Control is the only feature missing. I remember that PC was bashed, especially by 'traditionalists' :(.

I agree, and stated I have not had enough time with it yet.  However I just wanted to express my initial reactions and feelings.  And they are overwhelmingly negative.   when I dont want to use it, dont like the images from it and hate holding it.  There is something wrong.  
My M8.2, loved.  My M9, loved.  My M240, liked and got used to(closest to the M11 launch to me).  My M10, got the most use of any M ive ever owned, that platform was the best digital M ever made.  
My M10R, a refinement of the M10.  

The M11, the worst M to date, from an M standpoint.  As a digital camera, its amazing.  As a Leica M its awful.  

If this was the SL3, it would be a hit. 

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3 minutes ago, neekon said:

I disagree.  It is not polarizing. it is downright bad.  
Leica should be ashamed of this camera.  It should not have been released.  Honestly, it feels like it needed more time being designed and tested, from actual users and not fanboys and people who just gush over anything Leica.  

You know the beauty of any camera release is that no-one is forced to buy it.

It may be a mis-step, and lots of people were obviously wishing for something different / better to spend their money on. But at the end of the day people will vote with their wallets and if the M11 tanks, hopefully they will quickly release a camera that addresses its shortcomings. 

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Just now, setuporg said:

anyone like that here?

I am sure there are, but did anyone testing the camera tell them how stupid the SD-card/Battery solution was? 
Or how stupid completely removing the older metering system was, or at least implementing the new system in such a terrible was?

It feels that whenever they were given a chance to make it better they did to about 70% and then stopped.  


my theory, the m11P will fix all of this 

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1 minute ago, Stevejack said:

You know the beauty of any camera release is that no-one is forced to buy it.

It may be a mis-step, and lots of people were obviously wishing for something different / better to spend their money on. But at the end of the day people will vote with their wallets and if the M11 tanks, hopefully they will quickly release a camera that addresses its shortcomings. 

You are right, no one is forced to buy it.  
I bought it, after minimal hands on time due to someone at the store hogging the demo, and thought "I can at least return it"

I want to love it.  I really do.  Thats why I am so passionate about my opinions.   

I might be returning it, I have 7-14 days, so going to run it through its paces tomorrow, compare to my M10R, and just use it more.  

I dont want Leica to fail, or go under.  I do secretly hope the M11P fixes the issues(proper black body, proper metering, proper shutter)
If it takes the current M11 failing to do that, then let it fail.

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1 minute ago, neekon said:

Or how stupid completely removing the older metering system was, or at least implementing the new system in such a terrible was?

If they had only kept the old metering system, as well as add the new, I think a lot of us would be very pleased with this new release. 

It must either have not been possible to use both, or too expensive. Neither are really valid excuses for an M camera in my book, but we'll see how sales go I suppose. 

Leica would know that a lot of existing M users would hate the metering change. Their marketing department must have assumed it would bring in enough new users to make it worthwhile. 

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3 minutes ago, neekon said:

I am sure there are, but did anyone testing the camera tell them how stupid the SD-card/Battery solution was? 
Or how stupid completely removing the older metering system was, or at least implementing the new system in such a terrible was?

It feels that whenever they were given a chance to make it better they did to about 70% and then stopped.  


my theory, the m11P will fix all of this 

I am guessing we will see a M11P sooner rather than later in the product cycle. Perhaps next January? I'm very curious, why do you think it was stupid to remove the older meter system? I don't have a M11. I have a M10R and a Sony. I would think that the M11 would have a center weighted metering option that emulates what I have in the M10R? Also if they don't have it today, I would think they could add it? My gut feeling is that M11 was announced with unfinished firmware. Like for example how it's missing perspective control. To me this seems like they will come out with multiple firmware updates.

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6 minutes ago, neekon said:

You are right, no one is forced to buy it.  
I bought it, after minimal hands on time due to someone at the store hogging the demo, and thought "I can at least return it"

I want to love it.  I really do.  Thats why I am so passionate about my opinions.   

I might be returning it, I have 7-14 days, so going to run it through its paces tomorrow, compare to my M10R, and just use it more.  

I dont want Leica to fail, or go under.  I do secretly hope the M11P fixes the issues(proper black body, proper metering, proper shutter)
If it takes the current M11 failing to do that, then let it fail.

I've ordered one as well,  I appreciate the early feedback though. Your worries pre-launch were the same as mine.   I see a lot of useful features in the new camera, and really hope I can live with the changes, but if it's not as fun to use as the old version i'll be selling it.

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7 minutes ago, Crem said:

I'm very curious, why do you think it was stupid to remove the older meter system? 

I know you weren't directing this at me, but the problem is that the camera can't be used in the same way as the M10R. On the M11, you can't fire off a shot without the shutter closing, opening, closing again and then re-opening.     On the M10R when in manual shutter mode, the shutter only had to open / close.

Even if the difference is imperceptible in terms of shutter lag, the sound that the shutter makes when it takes a shot has a lot to do with the user experience. 

Lots of us hated using the M10 cameras in live-view mode because it just sounded slow... rather than a 'snick' when you took a picture, you heard the shutter close, open, close, and open again. The M11 has apparently improved things here, but for those of us who hated the M10 live-view shutter sound we're a bit put off by it.

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7 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

If they had only kept the old metering system, as well as add the new, I think a lot of us would be very pleased with this new release. 

It must either have not been possible to use both, or too expensive. Neither are really valid excuses for an M camera in my book, but we'll see how sales go I suppose. 

Leica would know that a lot of existing M users would hate the metering change. Their marketing department must have assumed it would bring in enough new users to make it worthwhile. 

The camera is 9000USD, same price as the M10R.  Adding/Including the older metering option would not have added that much to the bottom line, maybe a few hundred less profit, however the feedback experience would've been much better. 

Leica would know, they had to have.  It feels they wanted to do it this way, im guessing to push more people to the updated(with a measly 3.7m dot resolution) Visoflex.  I also theorize that this is a bit of a test bed for an EVF only M.  It feels really close to being one already.  

5 minutes ago, Crem said:

I am guessing we will see a M11P sooner rather than later in the product cycle. Perhaps next January? I'm very curious, why do you think it was stupid to remove the older meter system? I don't have a M11. I have a M10R and a Sony. I would think that the M11 would have a center weighted metering option that emulates what I have in the M10R? Also if they don't have it today, I would think they could add it? My gut feeling is that M11 was announced with unfinished firmware. Like for example how it's missing perspective control. To me this seems like they will come out with multiple firmware updates.

The older metering system uses a reflective metering off the shutter blades.  There is a reflective patch(or shutter blade) that reflect light into a light meter on the inside of the camera/lens mount.  Specifically the bottom, you can see it on any M prior to this.  
Any previous M that had this system would leave the shutter closed and meter from the "center weighted reflective meter" when in rangefinder mode.  This provide faster response with the shutter, a nicer feeling/sounding shutter and the lack of a delay when starting up(having to open up the shutter on startup).   It is/was not expensive in the grand scheme of things, to include the older style, as a stop gap measure, they chose to remove it.  

I do agree, some of the issues could be solved with firmware, sadly some cannot.  I do hope the M11P fixes the issues I have noticed thus far.  Otherwise, I feel the M10R might be my last digital M

1 minute ago, Stevejack said:

I've ordered one as well,  I appreciate the early feedback though. Your worries pre-launch were the same as mine.   I see a lot of useful features in the new camera, and really hope I can live with the changes, but if it's not as fun to use as the old version i'll be selling it.

I see a lot of useful features as well, its why I bought it.  I was hoping I could move past the faults I saw.   I am hoping the issues I have with it are growing/teething pain, and that after more use, I will learn to love it.  If I had to make that decision right now however, I would be selling it.   

 

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20 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

I know you weren't directing this at me, but the problem is that the camera can't be used in the same way as the M10R. On the M11, you can't fire off a shot without the shutter closing, opening, closing again and then re-opening.     On the M10R when in manual shutter mode, the shutter only had to open / close.

Even if the difference is imperceptible in terms of shutter lag, the sound that the shutter makes when it takes a shot has a lot to do with the user experience. 

Lots of us hated using the M10 cameras in live-view mode because it just sounded slow... rather than a 'snick' when you took a picture, you heard the shutter close, open, close, and open again. The M11 has apparently improved things here, but for those of us who hated the M10 live-view shutter sound we're a bit put off by it.

@Stevejackthanks for the info. I think I get what you are saying. I would describe the shutter on my M10R as delightful. It's quiet and refined. This is somewhat opposite of my Sonys. The Sonys sound more robotic, louder, and definitely are more distracting. I never used the original M10, but I'm guessing it's somewhere in-between the M10R and a typical Sony. Hopefully they can bring the best of both shutters in the M11P.

Edited by Crem
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30 minutes ago, neekon said:

I agree, and stated I have not had enough time with it yet.  However I just wanted to express my initial reactions and feelings.  And they are overwhelmingly negative.   when I dont want to use it, dont like the images from it and hate holding it.  There is something wrong.  
My M8.2, loved.  My M9, loved.  My M240, liked and got used to(closest to the M11 launch to me).  My M10, got the most use of any M ive ever owned, that platform was the best digital M ever made.  
My M10R, a refinement of the M10.  

The M11, the worst M to date, from an M standpoint.  As a digital camera, its amazing.  As a Leica M its awful.  

If this was the SL3, it would be a hit. 

I think you are experiencing the effect of "change aversion." People dislike something more because it is a change than because it is bad. 
Leica has used the new M11 menu in its mirrorless cameras. Once you get used to the new one, the M10-R menu will feel comparably archaic.

Give it time :).

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1 minute ago, setuporg said:

I don't get it.  In RF mode the shutter works just as well as in M10-R.  What's the problem here?  If you don't like the LV behavior you don't have to use it right?

You're using the camera in live-view mode even if you're looking through the range-finder. You can't use the old shutter behaviour where it would open/close. The shutter now always has to close-open-close-open every time you take a shot. 

You handled the camera, how did you find the shutter sound? Did it bother you at all? I suspect it won't be any issue for a lot of users, and those who do see issue with it will probably get used to it (according to early testers). 

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7 minutes ago, setuporg said:

I don't get it.  In RF mode the shutter works just as well as in M10-R.  What's the problem here?  If you don't like the LV behavior you don't have to use it right?

RF mode is different in M11. The shutter is open before you press the shutter. Pressing the shutter closes the shutter first. That is where the difference in sound and feel comes. IMO, the difference is too small to be relevant, others disagree.

It is nothing like M10-R's clunky live-view. I assume neekon is using M10-R's live view, because he is missing Perspective Control. Live view is a lot better in M11.

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3 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

You're using the camera in live-view mode even if you're looking through the range-finder. You can't use the old shutter behaviour where it would open/close. The shutter now always has to close-open-close-open every time you take a shot. 

You handled the camera, how did you find the shutter sound? Did it bother you at all? I suspect it won't be any issue for a lot of users, and those who do see issue with it will probably get used to it (according to early testers). 

I'm assuming there is no electronic front curtain shutter option? It makes a significant change in noise on Sonys. Unfortunately it has a few downsides so I'm not claiming this will solve the problem for everyone.

Edited by Crem
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Just now, Crem said:

I'm assuming there is no electronic front curtain shutter option? It makes a significant change in noise on Sonys. Unfortunately I has a few downsides so I'm not claiming this will solve the problem for everyone.

No EFCS on any Leica camera. It would be nice to have it in M11 in order to prevent a possible shutter-shock. The only alternative is using the electronic shutter. Very silent :).

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