TTArtisan 28mm f5.6

[jaapv]

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The thing that really bugs me about Leica lenses is that they do not project a little red dot onto the image. People might miss that I took a truly superior photograph.

 

4 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

Each photograph taken with a cheap lens is a photograph not taken with a Leica lens. 

And I am not willing to do that. Just no.

 

[a.noctilux]

9 hours ago, pippy said:

Thanks for the reply, cboy.

I'm not usually very interested in new releases of old lenses but the "8-Element" shoot-out did seem a bit out of the ordinary. FWIW in every comparison-test shown in the threads I've read I have always picked out the LLL images as my preferred rendering. "Strange but True" as they say. Had I not just recently picked-up an old 35 Summilux I might well have been tempted to get one for myself.

As far as the 28's are concerned you say;

"I dont expect any lens copy will be as good as the original..But if its 70-80% as good as the original at a fraction of the price then why not. The vintage  lens were never perfect to begin with..."

I may be proved very wrong once the new TT lenses have been made available but I'd predict that they will be either at the very least 'as good' as the original or, more likley, far better as TT have had some 70+ years of optical advance - in so many ways - and modern CAD-CAM to help things along.

Time Will Tell!

Philip.

Philip,

I hope you are right concerning CAD-CAM of present day.

Good for buyers of this lens.

However I would not buy this TT 28mm as I'm so happy with  new leica's one.

I use for some years now the newly released Summaron 28mm which for me suits me better than original old LTM 2.8cm that a friend let me use for many months.

So progress can be done without depreciation of older design.

Balance is delicate.

 

What I pointed out that the TT is not with same optical layout as Summaron 28mm, so not the same as "famous" copy of 35mm 8 element.

Shiny back part of the TT 28mm may give some flare ( maybe to mimic the old lens ? )

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by a.noctilux

[willeica]

5 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

Each photograph taken with a cheap lens is a photograph not taken with a Leica lens. 

And I am not willing to do that. Just no.

As a collector, I own about 50 Leitz/Leica lenses, but, as a Catholic, I don't feel that I have to go to confession every time that I use a lens that is not made by Leitz/Leica. In the area that I am interested in, the products made by Zeiss, Schneider, Meyer and others are all very fine and I have recently acquired a Leica from around 1930 fitted with a British made Dallmeyer lens. Dallmeyer was a company whose camera heritage started a lot earlier than that of Leitz. 

To Jaap's point, I want a lens which will produce a watermark of Barnack or Berek on every image 😀

I have the original LTM Summaron 2.8 cm f5.6, which, when it came out in 1955, was vastly superior to the earlier 2.8 cm Hektor lenses. And , yes, the LTM lens works very well on modern digital Leicas. They are now fetching about twice what I paid for mine, which is half again what the modern recreation costs. So, I paid about a quarter of what the modern version costs. 

My article here from 2016 about the performance of the original lens on a digital M has had about 6,000 reads to date, but it should still be relevant.

https://www.macfilos.com/2016/05/24/2016-5-20-leica-28mm-summaron-f56-little-old-guy-goes-modernperhaps/

As for the recent offerings of various Leitz/Leica copy lenses from China and elsewhere, I don't have any, but all of the reports I have got from users have been positive. The interesting thing is that I have had no reports of Leica entering into copyright disputes about any of the new entrants, so the company may see some benefits in letting the thing roll on , so long as there is no passing off with fakes, as opposed to copies.  

William 

Edited November 27, 2021 by willeica

[Gobert]

34 minutes ago, willeica said:

As a collector, I own about 50 Leitz/Leica lenses, but, as a Catholic, I don't feel that I have to go to confession every time that I use a lens that is not made by Leitz/Leica. In the area that I am interested in, the products made by Zeiss, Schneider, Meyer and others are all very fine and I have recently acquired a Leica from around 1930 fitted with a British made Dallmeyer lens. Dallmeyer was a company whose camera heritage started a lot earlier than that of Leitz. 

To Jaap's point, I want a lens which will produce a watermark of Barnack or Berek on every image 😀

I have the original LTM Summaron 2.8 cm f5.6, which, when it came out in 1955, was vastly superior to the earlier 2.8 cm Hektor lenses. And , yes, the LTM lens works very well on modern digital Leicas. They are now fetching about twice what I paid for mine, which is half again what the modern recreation costs. So, I paid about a quarter of what the modern version costs. 

My article here from 2016 about the performance of the original lens on a digital M has had about 6,000 reads to date, but it should still be relevant.

https://www.macfilos.com/2016/05/24/2016-5-20-leica-28mm-summaron-f56-little-old-guy-goes-modernperhaps/

As for the recent offerings of various Leitz/Leica copy lenses from China and elsewhere, I don't have any, but all of the reports I have got from users have been positive. The interesting thing is that I have had no reports of Leica entering into copyright disputes about any of the new entrants, so the company may see some benefits in letting the thing roll on , so long as there is no passing off with fakes, as opposed to copies.  

William 

I liked that article and nowadays I own that Summaron.

[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

Each photograph taken with a cheap lens is a photograph not taken with a Leica lens. 

And I am not willing to do that. Just no.

Thanks, let me take a note of that with my invisible typewriter

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[Guest]

I honestly believe that the TT artisans/7 Artisans  design teams are camera enthusiasts at heart which is a nice thing.

[cp995]

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Am 27.11.2021 um 06:21 schrieb Capuccino-Muffin:

Each photograph taken with a cheap lens is a photograph not taken with a Leica lens. 

And I am not willing to do that. Just no.

O.k., that's a typical example for Leica Users all over the world.

But, it has nothing to do with reality!
Most people here need a red button on a lens, even if it's worse than others.
Actually I sold all my Leica lenses (except the vintage LTMs for my IIIf), as Voigtlaender (for example) offers superior qualtiy for a portion of the price.

Only one example is the (big an heavy) SEM 21, which I exchanched by the great and small Ultorn 3.5/21 VM.
Image quallity is absolutely comparable; prices and size/weight are not.

Beside Cosina/Voigtlaender we should expect more examples of good chinese manufactured lenses for our Leica bodies.
It's interesting to see, that Leica only focusses on the high-end market.
They know, that their "normal" lenses can't compete with the competition.

Times changes!

PS: I use my Leica M10 because of the great body; the lenses (beside the viontage ones) are not competitive any more.
 

Edited November 29, 2021 by cp995

[KFo]

13 minutes ago, cp995 said:

O.k., that's a typical example for Leica Users all over the world.

But, it has nothing to do with reality!
Most people here need a red button on a lens, even if it's worse than others.
Actually I sold all my Leica lenses (except the vintage LTMs for my IIIf), as Voigtlaender (for example) offers superior qualtiy for a portion of the price.

Only one example is the (big an heavy) SEM 21, which I exchanched by the great and small Ultorn 3.5/21 VM.
Image quallity is absolutely comparable; prices and size/weight are not.

Beside Cosina/Voigtlaender we should expect more examples of good chinese manufactured lenses for our Leica bodies.
It's interesting to see, that Leica only focusses on the high-end market.
They know, that their "normal" lenses can't compete with the competition.

Times changes!

PS: I use my Leica M10 because of the great body; the lenses (beside the viontage ones) are not competitive any more.
 

You have a completely different prospective than my own.  I use Leica because of the wealth of native mount lenses available, the M10P on the other hand is just a lens carrier in my view. The camera body will crap out long before any of my optics. 

But really, if you read good tests (Reid Reviews for example) with an open mind, you often find that "anybody" can make a pretty good lens.  Making a lens that is "really nice", or extraordinary in multiple dimensions of quality is much more difficult.  And this is why, I am a TTArtisians skeptic. 

[pippy]

5 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Just a heads up on the lens pricing debate for all members in Europe, this is the official EU price from the importer/distributor.
The US B&H price is $298.
 

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Interesting, Al.

Converted to Sterling that works out (at current rates) to £224 for the Dollar-price in the USA to £279 for the Euro-price! It will be interesting to see what we, here in Post-Brexit UK, will be asked to hand over...

Philip.

[pippy]

18 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

It is the norm lately that in the EU the "before VAT" net prices of gear are very similar to "before tax" prices in the USA, which is also the case here.

Cheers, Al!

I've just had a very quick look to see if I can do a direct comparison with any one particular lens as advertised both here and in the USA (I can't see the 28mm f5.6 advertised anywhere in the UK yet) and as an example here are the respective prices in the USA and the UK for the TTArtisans 50mm f1.4 in M-mount. I see that Amazon is listed as being a supplier in both our countries so I will use their UK price and that from KEH (first supplier which came up) in the US.

KEH = $369.00 which works out as being £277.58........Amazon UK = £381.36.

Would the price from KEH include all taxes?

I can't log in to the Amazon USA site to see what the same lens costs through them but £103.78 is quite a difference. It might be that there are lower prices here if I searched the www but I doubt anywhere will be even remotely close to the price 'over the pond'.

Once the lens is officially available I'll try to remember to post an update!

Philip.

EDIT : Interestingly a 35% mark-up - which is roughly what we are talking about here - is approximately what I'd expect to be levied if I were to import a lens once 20% VAT and all import duties are added together. Amazon's price will probably be not far off in that case...

Edited November 29, 2021 by pippy

[pippy]

16 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

For your particular chosen lens (TTArtisan 50/1.4 in M-mount): Price in EU (German Amazon.de) with VAT is 425 euros as seen here, so without German VAT (19%) the price is 357 euros (400$). Same lens on B&H/KEH without tax costs 369$, which comes to 30$ difference.

Thanks again.

If the price including all taxes in Germany is 425 Euros then that works out to be roughly £20 more than the asking price from Amazon so around £40 (approx. 12%) more than Stateside. Not too bad all things considered.

Philip.

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by pippy

[NigelG]

As an NYC resident there will be 8.875% tax added to the B + H price for my order….

Edited November 29, 2021 by NigelG

[willeica]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Just a heads up on the lens pricing debate for all members in Europe, this is the official EU price from the importer/distributor.
The US B&H price is $298.
 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The European price is inclusive of all taxes, US prices are not. What is done in the US showing a price exclusive of tax is illegal in most European countries, but apparently Americans prefer to see their taxes made explicit. Two different cultures. I got the this reply from a US Federal Trade Commissioner when I was his opposite number in my own country. 

William 

Edited November 29, 2021 by willeica

[jdlaing]

2 hours ago, NigelG said:

As an NYC resident there will be 8.875% tax added to the B + H price for my order….

I can show you how to get that tax refunded. 😃

[willeica]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

And not to forget that every EU country has a different VAT rate - from 17% in Luxembourg to 27% (!!!) in Hungary.

 

3 hours ago, jdlaing said:

I can show you how to get that tax refunded. 😃

I am aware of all of that. I was just pointing out the issues involved in comparing US and European prices. To the point about European VAT rates varying, companies such as Leica tend to apply the same price across the Eurozone irrespective of local rates. This affects Governments more than consumers who pay the same price everywhere. Britain is a law unto itself and was even before Brexit, because it has its own currency with fluctuating exchange rates v the Euro. I don't spend much time thinking about the 'injustice' of certain prices because, as I live in the Euro-zone, I have a wide range of choices about where I can purchase goods without paying additional taxes. Importing from the US is not an option that I ever consider except when I support Dan Tamarkin's Auction. I buy items at UK auctions from time to time, but only where the item is a rare one that I want and I can justify the additional import charges.

There is no such thing as a 'right price'. You find out what the price is and then decide whether it is justified for you. Retailers/sellers/auctioneers are under no legal obligation to sell at a particular price unless they have entered into legal agreements with manufacturers/distributors, but such agreements must comply with competition law etc. 

William

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

 

I am aware of all of that. I was just pointing out the issues involved in comparing US and European prices. To the point about European VAT rates varying, companies such as Leica tend to apply the same price across the Eurozone irrespective of local rates. This affects Governments more than consumers who pay the same price everywhere. Britain is a law unto itself and was even before Brexit, because it has its own currency with fluctuating exchange rates v the Euro. I don't spend much time thinking about the 'injustice' of certain prices because, as I live in the Euro-zone, I have a wide range of choices about where I can purchase goods without paying additional taxes. Importing from the US is not an option that I ever consider except when I support Dan Tamarkin's Auction. I buy items at UK auctions from time to time, but only where the item is a rare one that I want and I can justify the additional import charges.

There is no such thing as a 'right price'. You find out what the price is and then decide whether it is justified for you. Retailers/sellers/auctioneers are under no legal obligation to sell at a particular price unless they have entered into legal agreements with manufacturers/distributors, but such agreements must comply with competition law etc. 

William

My reply was to Nigel regarding the New York tax.

[Guest]

Just imagine if the TT artisan lens is just as good or bad maybe?  as the leica remake of the original lens,what shall the leica snobs do then? 

Maybe claim it is sharper at the edge of the frame and does not vignette as dramatically as the remake of the 50's original and is therefore invalid ?

[Simone_DF]

The optical design is different compared to the Summaron. 

By looking at the optical design and the MFT charts, I thnk the TTArtisan has a more modern rendering and it's definitely sharper in the corners, at least on paper. We'll see once lens samples and reviews start popping up. I'm considering getting one!

TTArtisan:

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Summaron:

 

[willeica]

7 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

what shall the leica snobs do then? 

I am not a 'Leica snob', whatever that might be, but like many collectors I already had the original version of the lens. I bought it before Leica produced the recent copy, but it is so good that I did not have to consider buying the new version. I also have the hood for the original lens which is quite an expensive item these days.

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

By looking at the optical design and the MFT charts, I thnk the TTArtisan has a more modern rendering and it's definitely sharper in the corners, at least on paper. We'll see once lens samples and reviews start popping up. I'm considering getting one!

It should be 'better' as it is 66 years since the original one appeared. However, the 1955 lens is good enough for me and it definitely has character, something I value even more than sharpness. The comparison should be between the current Leica lens and this one, of course, if that is important for any potential purchaser of either. 

I am still trying to figure out what Leica's strategy is here. The number of M lens copies from China seems likely to increase over time.

William

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

It should be 'better' as it is 66 years since the original one appeared. However, the 1955 lens is good enough for me and it definitely has character, something I value even more than sharpness. The comparison should be between the current Leica lens and this one, of course, if that is important for any potential purchaser of either. 

I am still trying to figure out what Leica's strategy is here. The number of M lens copies from China seems likely to increase over time.

I absolutely agree with your statement, and that's why I carefully avoided to mention "better". I just said it's sharper, but sharper doesn't necessarily mean "better". Some people prefer "character", others more "modern" rendering. There's no right or wrong, just a matter of personal preferences. My reason for getting the TTA is the compact form factor and the price. I can afford to get the Summaron, but I'm not willing to pay 2300€ for a f/5.6 lens.

I think Leica has not too much to worry from the Chinese copies, they serve a different market with little overlap. The real threat is Voigtlander, which is offering an extremely competitive price/performance ratio compared to any Leica lens released in the past 2 years.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Simone_DF