My message to Leica AG in regards to CL!

[dkCambridgeshire]

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Panasonic is big enough to develop an APS-C L mount ICL camera .... which could be 'Leica tweaked' and 'Leica badged ' ... in the same way that smaller format Pana-Leica cameras have been produced over the last 10? years.

Edited November 3, 2021 by dkCambridgeshire

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[jaapv]

 But it appears that Leica has lost all interest in APS-C. In  their product survey all models are mentioned- except the APS lines...

[LocalHero1953]

8 minutes ago, jaapv said:

 But it appears that Leica has lost all interest in APS-C. In  their product survey all models are mentioned- except the APS lines...

When Leica makes no public comment on CL and TL2, we have to read the runes in whatever information it does give out - such as this survey.
I have a fantasy that the event drawing youtubers, bloggers and influencers to Wetzlar this week (see the M11 thread) is actually to announce the CL2.

[jaapv]

Well, by now I have lost interest in continuing my CL journey. I am extremely impressed by Panasonic S. The S5 is even compact enough for my wishes. And it works well enough in conjunction with my CL and M system. No need to upgrade anything. Leica forces me to turn to Sigma for lenses and Panasonic for bodies. I am not prepared to move to SL for bulk, and price

[FrozenInTime]

16 minutes ago, jaapv said:

 But it appears that Leica has lost all interest in APS-C. In  their product survey all models are mentioned- except the APS lines...

Indeed - when I entered the CL under 'other' , the survey seemed to be biased towards determining how much larger they could grow the SL :

Add tilt/swivel screen , add wireless charging plate , keep a battery grip on the camera etc.

 

For many of us the compact size of the TL lenses and  CL/TL bodies are the unique selling points - keep it Barnack !

Other wise I will take a M ; the SL2-S I have sees the least use.

[Louis]

35 minutes ago, jaapv said:

 But it appears that Leica has lost all interest in APS-C. In  their product survey all models are mentioned- except the APS lines...

This is exactly what I think. I was very surprised and troubled to not see CL being mentioned!

I was also troubled by LUF to not mention this topic with over 140  replies in their list of busiest topics!

Edited November 4, 2021 by Louis

[jaapv]

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I  think that they are misjudging the size of the vocal minority  who want to see a Leica by Sony or Nikon. 

[bags27]

Wow, jaap, that's a big decision on your part. I've always appreciated the enthusiasm that you and others (especially Louis) have expressed for this very fine camera. 

My entirely uninformed sense is that Leica is completely committed to pushing the digital image as far as it will go, without compromise to cost or weight. It apparently can successfully market camera bodies in the USD 10k range and lenses in the USD 5-12k range. And it can foist the massive SL2 and S on people who are of an age that they (we!) shouldn't be schlepping those bricks around. Some of these combinations produce amazing photographs (many of which I don't like personally, but I still admire...if you know what I mean). 

I suppose in that single, uncompromised purpose there's little interest in a camera which delights but doesn't amaze.

 

[IkarusJohn]

I thought the product survey was all rather pointless, to be honest.  They want to know if we want a tilt screen and induction charging SL - they’re really hitting the big ticket items.

What is it we want in digital Leicas?  It isn’t the price …

Putting a sensor into an M camera, and keeping a significant premium over electronically superior Canons and Nikons was a neat trick - until the electronics started to fail, and the justification for the Leica premium started to wear a bit thin.  The “sensible” people said Leica for life was just marketing - don’t be credulous.  That made the premium, and Made in Wetzlar tag a bit implausible.

So, now the CL/TL seems in doubt, and Leica is drifting into direct competition with the opposition with the SL?  I like the 601.  I have a feeling that the next iteration of the SL cameras will have lost all its unique selling point, and the justification for wearing the Leica premium will have gone - the monstrous Z9 might have suddenly become attractive … I can carry the TL2 til it dies - it’s a nice little camera, and it’s useful.  I’m sure CL owners feel the same way.

My SL is a user, and I am down to one SL lens.  That will also be enjoyed, til sold for scrap.  If I was looking to upgrade, it would be another lens for my M-A, or to look again at Nikon.

When I joined this forum 10 or so years ago, Jaap would reliably buy each new M camera - now he’s talking Panasonic and Sigma …

[rob_w]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

When I joined this forum 10 or so years ago, Jaap would reliably buy each new M camera - now he’s talking Panasonic and Sigma …

Says it all, John.  One reason I do not want  to change is decades on this forum and enjoying the company.

But if Leica abandons us, changing to another brand is inevitable!

[IkarusJohn]

Hi Rob,

I developed a strategy after my M9 corroded, and I was told I was credulous buying into the “Leica for life” marketing.

I had my Monochrom upgraded, and got an M-A, thinking that I would not buy another colour digital M.  I relented when I spent some time in hospital, and got into an email exchange with Stefan Daniel, and I bought an M10-D (with some misgivings) as a reward for surviving extensive, unpleasant and life threatening treatment.

Long term, I proposed to wear out, beyond reparable age, the digital Leicas I have, and I will not buy another, save perhaps another Monochrom.  I have a nice collection of M lenses (with only GAS fuelling a desire for a 35 APO Summicron ) which I will used with my M-A, which should last my lifetime and beyond.

John

[Ba Erv]

Personally, Leica’s future development provides no instructive signal to my artistic plans and satisfaction…I bought a new CL today.

[cpclee]

Would people be less upset if Leica discontinues the CL/TL lines but continues to produce TL lenses and releases a FF L mount EVF body with a size close to M?

[LocalHero1953]

If Leica produces a new body that fits into the same size/weight niche as the CL but is FF that would be OK with me, but the TL lenses would no longer match, and they would also need a new range of compact lenses: the current Leica L range is all too large and heavy. 

[nicci78]

I don’t know why everybody are in panic mode ??

Have you noticed that we are in the middle of a massive chip shortage. 
Even chip shortage immune Apple reported a 6 Billions loss last quarter ! Due to lack of certain composants. 
Car industry is at halt. 

CL2 exists for sure. It was pre announced to dealer for a March 2021 release. 
But for unknown reasons postponed (certainly due to chip shortage) 

Every photo manufacturers were not able to ramp up production in august for Holidays sales. 
Therefore not enough cameras and lenses will be produced for Christmas!! 
Expect price rise in second hand market. 
 

So it is pretty smart for Leica to put all its efforts into future high margin M11 instead of low margin CL2. 
So be patient and get ready to buy CL2 in March-April 2022 

 

[NZDavid]

12 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

...CL2 exists for sure. It was pre announced to dealer for a March 2021 release. ...

Maybe it does, maybe it's delayed, maybe it's been canned, who knows? 

I agree that Leica has lost the original ethos behind the Barnack design, which is encapsulated in the CL shape, even if it is not perfect for everybody: small camera, big pictures.

Like I have said before, I think there are too many formats kicking around and the entire camera line-up from all manufacturers needs rationalizing. We have already seen cell phones take over from dinky so-called point and shoots, but there are still too many sensor sizes. A truly compact larger-sensor size camera with interchangeable lenses that is actually simple to operate would go well.

There is a reason the Q range is a top seller but there i still room for something else along the lines of a CL or TL.

 

[LocalHero1953]

57 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I don’t know why everybody are in panic mode ??

Have you noticed that we are in the middle of a massive chip shortage. 
Even chip shortage immune Apple reported a 6 Billions loss last quarter ! Due to lack of certain composants. 
Car industry is at halt. 

CL2 exists for sure. It was pre announced to dealer for a March 2021 release. 
But for unknown reasons postponed (certainly due to chip shortage) 

Every photo manufacturers were not able to ramp up production in august for Holidays sales. 
Therefore not enough cameras and lenses will be produced for Christmas!! 
Expect price rise in second hand market. 
 

So it is pretty smart for Leica to put all its efforts into future high margin M11 instead of low margin CL2. 
So be patient and get ready to buy CL2 in March-April 2022 

 

I'm afraid, Nicci, that your certainty, based on what a dealer was told some time ago, has been overtaken by the reports from at least two members here, EUSe and Satijntje, of a meeting at which Stefan Daniel seems to have said that APSC does not appear in Leica's future plans. Although there is scope for reinterpretation and analysis of actual words, their direct report is credible.

[rob_w]

We must defer to Leica's commercial nous and the need the company has to survive and prosper.  But some of their product positioning and marketing is  difficult to understand. 

Last summer I was in a Leica store in London.   An obviously wealthy couple came in who had no photographic knowledge but wanted to record their young children over the coming years.  They had clearly been drawn by the idea that "Leica is the best, when money is no object".  The sales person struggled.  The SL2 was too big, heavy and complicated for them.  The Q was a possibility but not at all suitable for fast moving children often taken at a distance (although they did not realise that would be a problem, they just did not like that you could not change the lens).  The CL (or the TL for that matter) would have been perfect, especially for the wife, but the sales person avoided mentioning it. 

They struck up a conversation with me and I explained I had used Leica for 40 years and had a wonderful pictorial record of my own children and grandchildren as a consequence.  I did not feel I should mention the CL when the sales person had chosen not to do so.  I was a guest in his store.  Should I have said something?  Perhaps.  In the event they left the store without making a purchase.

Of course this is only a data point of one.  Difficult to generalise.  But it was hard for me to see why the sales person did not have the table covered with APS-C bodies and lenses once the SL and Q had failed to be desirable for them.  Go figure!

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[Boojay]

24 minutes ago, rob_w said:

We must defer to Leica's commercial nous and the need the company has to survive and prosper.  But some of their product positioning and marketing is  difficult to understand. 

Last summer I was in a Leica store in London.   An obviously wealthy couple came in who had no photographic knowledge but wanted to record their young children over the coming years.  They had clearly been drawn by the idea that "Leica is the best, when money is no object".  The sales person struggled.  The SL2 was too big, heavy and complicated for them.  The Q was a possibility but not at all suitable for fast moving children often taken at a distance (although they did not realise that would be a problem, they just did not like that you could not change the lens).  The CL (or the TL for that matter) would have been perfect, especially for the wife, but the sales person avoided mentioning it. 

They struck up a conversation with me and I explained I had used Leica for 40 years and had a wonderful pictorial record of my own children and grandchildren as a consequence.  I did not feel I should mention the CL when the sales person had chosen not to do so.  I was a guest in his store.  Should I have said something?  Perhaps.  In the event they left the store without making a purchase.

Of course this is only a data point of one.  Difficult to generalise.  But it was hard for me to see why the sales person did not have the table covered with APS-C bodies and lenses once the SL and Q had failed to be desirable for them.  Go figure!

Congratulations on your restraint Rob, pretty sure I would have had to say something, even if only to the sales person after the couple had left.  They sound to me like perfect candidates for either TL2/CL, it makes no sense to me why they were left off the table.  No commission on sales these days???

 

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I don’t know why everybody are in panic mode ??

Have you noticed that we are in the middle of a massive chip shortage. 
Even chip shortage immune Apple reported a 6 Billions loss last quarter ! Due to lack of certain composants. 
Car industry is at halt. 

CL2 exists for sure. It was pre announced to dealer for a March 2021 release. 
But for unknown reasons postponed (certainly due to chip shortage) 

Every photo manufacturers were not able to ramp up production in august for Holidays sales. 
Therefore not enough cameras and lenses will be produced for Christmas!! 
Expect price rise in second hand market. 
 

So it is pretty smart for Leica to put all its efforts into future high margin M11 instead of low margin CL2. 
So be patient and get ready to buy CL2 in March-April 2022 

 

That was my argument a few weeks back.  But an even smarter company than Leica would have given a roadmap to keep their customers from scattering.