LocalHero1953 Posted October 12, 2021 Share #41 Posted October 12, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 3 hours ago, Louis said: Ken, thank you very much for all the information. I have been checking the Sigma site and I find the camera becoming weird an uncomfortable with the extras! I wish it was a little larger but more complete! … Unfortunately, the perfect camera never exists! It's worth recording here that I prefer the Sigma menu system (both Quickstart and text menus) to Leica's - easier to navigate and more logically laid out. Though there are more buttons, they are not sprayed on randomly around the body, and I find them intuitive and quick. It's just the body shape and the lack of EVF that is the problem. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 12, 2021 Posted October 12, 2021 Hi LocalHero1953, Take a look here My message to Leica AG in regards to CL!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
frame-it Posted October 12, 2021 Share #42 Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said: It's worth recording here that I prefer the Sigma menu system (both Quickstart and text menus) to Leica's - easier to navigate and more logically laid out. Though there are more buttons, they are not sprayed on randomly around the body, and I find them intuitive and quick. It's just the body shape and the lack of EVF that is the problem. since you brought up the menus, i still prefer the SL601 4 button + menu style...the SL2S menu system is incredibly deep like a sony Edited October 12, 2021 by frame-it 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted October 12, 2021 Share #43 Posted October 12, 2021 14 hours ago, Boojay said: ... I think many of us would like to know if there is a future with Leica for APS-C. ... I dunno. While I'm sure many people would like to know every detail of Leica's future product plans, such information could easily go awry and cause products that have a fine serviceable life left in sales to fall by the wayside. What's wrong with the CL as it is? I bought mine in 2018, sold my M-P 240 and M-D 262, and am still delighted with it. I don't need the complications of IBIS or higher pixel resolution ... I have other cameras for that ... and the CL with a couple of M (and R) lenses constitutes a compact, light kit that still produces about the best image quality out of any 24Mpixel camera I've been using, up to at least ISO 3200 anyway. And ISO 12500 isn't bad either. I have seen this urgent rush and insistence on new models happening for the past 18 years with digital cameras. I have never understood it. I prefer to buy something that works and use it until it's worn out from use. And then have it rebuilt and use it some more... G 4 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted October 12, 2021 Author Share #44 Posted October 12, 2021 There is absolutely nothing wrong with CL as it is. I love it and greatly enjoy using it. Since four years have already passed from the production of CL and there are lots of "rumors" about leica ending the APS-C system, I think it is fair for the CL users to have an idea about the future of this camera and Leica APS-C system in general. Many CL users must decide financially and "technically" about the set up their gear. Staying in the dark is not very helpful to make any decision! 🤗 9 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted October 13, 2021 Share #45 Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Louis said: There is absolutely nothing wrong with CL as it is. I love it and greatly enjoy using it. Since four years have already passed from the production of CL and there are lots of "rumors" about leica ending the APS-C system, I think it is fair for the CL users to have an idea about the future of this camera and Leica APS-C system in general. Many CL users must decide financially and "technically" about the set up their gear. Staying in the dark is not very helpful to make any decision! 🤗 i seem to remember there for 4 new camera ids on the rumor site, so im guessing one of them is the CL2, and the others SL2S monochrome or Dlux, M11 and possibly an S4 for 2023 Edited October 13, 2021 by frame-it Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolsen Posted October 13, 2021 Share #46 Posted October 13, 2021 I have the X2 and CL. I bought the CL to use it with my R and M lenses. I have no issue with the X being discontinued, and no issues with no road map for the CL. Both cameras are working well and fits my needs. Happy that Leica is not tempting me to by gear I don’t really need 😀. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 13, 2021 Share #47 Posted October 13, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 12 hours ago, SoCalLeicanator said: Does anyone know or is there a way of finding out how many CL/TL2 bodies were sold relative to Qs? The answer might lie here. As long as we don't know the sales targets there would be no conclusion to be drawn. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_w Posted October 13, 2021 Share #48 Posted October 13, 2021 10 hours ago, ramarren said: I dunno. While I'm sure many people would like to know every detail of Leica's future product plans, such information could easily go awry and cause products that have a fine serviceable life left in sales to fall by the wayside. What's wrong with the CL as it is? I bought mine in 2018, sold my M-P 240 and M-D 262, and am still delighted with it. I don't need the complications of IBIS or higher pixel resolution ... I have other cameras for that ... and the CL with a couple of M (and R) lenses constitutes a compact, light kit that still produces about the best image quality out of any 24Mpixel camera I've been using, up to at least ISO 3200 anyway. And ISO 12500 isn't bad either. I have seen this urgent rush and insistence on new models happening for the past 18 years with digital cameras. I have never understood it. I prefer to buy something that works and use it until it's worn out from use. And then have it rebuilt and use it some more... G The issue in this thread is not about the "CL2" as such, it is about Leica's continued commitment to APS/C. We have seen no announcements since Maike Herbert's interview in 2019 and various indications which make their commitment doubtful. To re-state the obvious, when people buy into a camera system they expect reasonable re-assurance that the system will continue to be developed and supported by the manufacturer. 7 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted October 13, 2021 Share #49 Posted October 13, 2021 4 hours ago, rob_w said: The issue in this thread is not about the "CL2" as such, it is about Leica's continued commitment to APS/C. We have seen no announcements since Maike Herbert's interview in 2019 and various indications which make their commitment doubtful. To re-state the obvious, when people buy into a camera system they expect reasonable re-assurance that the system will continue to be developed and supported by the manufacturer. I agree about "support" but "develop" is a different matter. If the demand is not there for APS/C Leicas, how could one expect them to continue to develop more products? If there is not enough demand to sustain the product line (i.e. to make a profit or at least to break even), it is unreasonable to expect the product line to continue. For a period of time, a company that is otherwise profitable can afford to keep a nonprofitable product line going, but it cannot go on forever. Leica is not an eleemosynary entity. The bottom line is that if APS/C does not survive, it is because we consumers have voted it out with our pocketbooks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chef Posted October 13, 2021 Share #50 Posted October 13, 2021 I guess with that ringing positive support for Leica’s APSC line we should start to look at selling our gear and looking at what Fuji and Sony have to offer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted October 13, 2021 Share #51 Posted October 13, 2021 Well, I just purchased a new CL/18mm kit and M>L adapter on Friday, so I sure hope they don't announce anything new soon! So far I haven't figured out yet what is so wrong with it that it will stop working and crumble to dust if a CL2 isn't announced soon. Sure, higher ISO's could be better, but that's also what my M10-R black paint is for - which alas went back to Leica straight out of the box, brand new, last month for a rf calibration - no idea when I'll see it again - and I traded my M10 in for it and so have been using my M9 (also not 'broken') and decided on a CL for a backup solution and compact carry everywhere. So far so great. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 13, 2021 Share #52 Posted October 13, 2021 1 hour ago, AlanJW said: eleemosynary One learns something every day... 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalLeicanator Posted October 13, 2021 Share #53 Posted October 13, 2021 1 hour ago, jaapv said: One learns something every day... Me too, I'm so ready for the next scrabble game! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted October 13, 2021 Share #54 Posted October 13, 2021 3 hours ago, SoCalLeicanator said: Me too, I'm so ready for the next scrabble game! Well, I knew the word (had heard it decades ago in law school), but had to look up how to spell it. Happy to provide something of educational (or gaming) value. I've learned some new words here too, like "Messucher." 🙂 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robgo2 Posted October 13, 2021 Share #55 Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) Leica typically remains silent about future camera development, but the long interval without a hint that APS-C will continue to be supported is, indeed, worrisome. We must also bear in mind that current supply line shortages will affect all camera manufacturers in the near term. This may be the reason for the reticence (I hope). The CL is a camera that I could continue using without much complaint. What I would like to see are some new TL lenses in the ultra wide and telephoto ranges. Of course, I could, and do, use M lenses, but at my age, I strongly prefer autofocus. I'm confident that I am not alone in this. Lots of Leicaphiles are getting on in years. Edited October 13, 2021 by robgo2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted October 13, 2021 Share #56 Posted October 13, 2021 1 hour ago, AlanJW said: Well, I knew the word (had heard it decades ago in law school), but had to look up how to spell it. Happy to provide something of educational (or gaming) value. I've earned some new words here too, like "Messucher." 🙂 A thread on haruspication about Leica's intentions is an unexpected place to learn new words. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Dahl Posted October 13, 2021 Share #57 Posted October 13, 2021 6 hours ago, AlanJW said: I agree about "support" but "develop" is a different matter. If the demand is not there for APS/C Leicas, how could one expect them to continue to develop more products? If there is not enough demand to sustain the product line (i.e. to make a profit or at least to break even), it is unreasonable to expect the product line to continue. For a period of time, a company that is otherwise profitable can afford to keep a nonprofitable product line going, but it cannot go on forever. Leica is not an eleemosynary entity. The bottom line is that if APS/C does not survive, it is because we consumers have voted it out with our pocketbooks. You're right. But Leica does not have support on TL2 and has not had it for a long time. One way to solve this could be to develop an FF “Leica CL” with reasonably high MP. > 47 MP. Some will say we have sl2. But I think a smaller size and with looking on the left side as CL. Then it might be that us TL2 / CL users let us be tempted by an SL optics .. but Leica please com with an announcement before it is too late and we switch to another brand. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelG Posted October 13, 2021 Share #58 Posted October 13, 2021 2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said: A thread on haruspication about Leica's intentions is an unexpected place to learn new words. Indeed - who knew CL users were prone to epeolatry... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted October 13, 2021 Share #59 Posted October 13, 2021 55 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said: You're right. But Leica does not have support on TL2 and has not had it for a long time. One way to solve this could be to develop an FF “Leica CL” with reasonably high MP. > 47 MP. Some will say we have sl2. But I think a smaller size and with looking on the left side as CL. Then it might be that us TL2 / CL users let us be tempted by an SL optics .. but Leica please com with an announcement before it is too late and we switch to another brand. Having a SL2-S and a CL, it is the small TL lenses that I want to see more of ; the SL lenses seem just too large for casual use, so any time I use the SL2-S it is with a M lens. If they are holding back APS-C to stimulate SL lens sales, it's not going to work for me. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted October 13, 2021 Share #60 Posted October 13, 2021 I think the deciding factor is the future of APS. There are already so many sensor sizes: "medium" format, "full frame", APS (several flavours), MFT, "1-inch", cell phone-type small sensors. Is there a future market for all of them? Which are selling best? That will surely govern future manufacturing decisions. There may be more compact full-frame cameras emerging. Sony's Alpha 7C is a recent example (and looks tempting). But it's likely there will still be a market for more compact sensor cameras. Is MFT an option? Leica makes (or brands) a raft of MFT lenses for Panasonic cameras but has no own-brand MFT body. It's not just camera bodies, it's lenses. Of course, you tend to be able to use lenses designed for larger-sensor cameras on smaller-sensor cameras but not vice versa; much the same as in film days. Again, are there too many formats? Also, there have been massive performance increases in sensor performance. However, in my limited experience, I've found that while resolution might be very good in an iPhone, when you compare a camera with a larger sensor, the big differences in quality tend to emerge in low light at higher ISO settings. So, cell phones and small-sensor cameras can't do everything. In film days, the main choices were 35mm and medium format. There were other larger ones but a limited market. Smaller sized consumer formats like the original APS film or "Instamatic" 126 cassettes (remember them!?) didn't last. Product rationalization would make sense from a business and production point of view. By the way, I like the X designs and would consider a new CL -- or at least, a compact interchangeable lens AF model. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.