My message to Leica AG in regards to CL!

[jaapv]

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Not really, both are equally capable

[Herr Barnack]

I would think that for making 16x24 or 24x36 inch - or larger - exhibit quality prints, a full frame sensor would be the way to go.

I suppose that depends on how demanding of IQ the image maker is,though.

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[Studienkamera]

24 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

I think that says more about the level of commitment to photography of those Leica users than it does about the M system. 

That is not meant as a slam, it means simply that the CL meets their photographic wants/needs; the CL is more than adequate for e-sharing of images.  The M system would likely be a better fit for those who want to create large size fine prints.

Now I am confused. I printed some of my CL pictures (wanted to show my commitment), but so far none of my M10 pictures. Did I get this wrong?

Seriously, perceptions like these probably contributed to the demise of Leica's APS-C system.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Studienkamera

[cpclee]

5 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

2 people out of 2 misunderstood? 

Would not be the first time.  In fact, I never found Stefan Daniels to be a good communicator.  When the R system was discontinued, he promised an eventual solution for R users to mount their lenses.  Most people, myself included upon reading the transcript, interpreted what he said to be not very promising.  The timeframe and nature of this solution were never made clear leaving people to make wild speculations and cry of abandonment (not so unlike the present situation).  Then when the SL 601 came five years later, jaws dropped.  We were delivered a fully modern, professional grade EVF mirrorless camera of the highest quality with complete backward compatibility and with a level of polish no one could have guessed:  Weather sealed! Highest res EVF in the industry! Super fast AF!  OIS!  You name it.

Bottomline is, Leica users are passionate and are prone to speculation.  Leica as a company, in my view, does not benefit a lot from being cagey.  They don't really compete with other camera makers in the usual sense neither do they have worthwhile "trade secrets" to protect in terms of production plans that can materially affect other camera makers' planning.  In this sense, I've found their product communications to be historically poor and cagey to their detriment.  

In the end I bought my R system back, but they lost a lot of shooters to other brands.  They didn't need to spell out details they didn't know yet, but at least they could have shared more to provide greater confidence. 

Another example is when the SL was released with just 2 zooms.  That led to wild speculations about half heartedness etc.  But look at the lineup now. 

[cpclee]

Another thing I want to point out is the positioning of the CL/TL line.  Most Leica salespersons don't seem to have been properly educated by Leica to characterise the line to their customers.  If you watch the few webinars available on YouTube of Peter Karbe (head of Leica optics design) discussing L mount lenses, this much is clear:

- constrained by their legacy mounts, lenses designed for FF systems based on film-era mounts like the M (or Canon EOS, Nikon F mount, Sony A mount etc.) will begin to not be able to do justice to increased pixels on the sensors starting at around 24m pixels

- L mount FF lenses are capable of resolving more than 100m pixels

- L mount APS-C lenses are capable of matching or out-resolving legacy mount FF systems when the combined sensor + lens performance is taken into account

The implications, then, are that (1) from an image quality perspective the APS-C L mount systems is sufficient for most shooters and is today's equivalent of Barnack's 35mm format in the film days in terms of performance and portability; (2) the SL cameras really are meant to serve a lot of traditionally medium format shooters which is why the lenses are allowed to be larger.

Bottomline is, in retrospect you get a sense of how terrible the communications have been in articulating the purpose and strengths of the CL/TL systems.  I, for one, had to learn this from some youtube videos to understand their design choices and intent and product positioning.  Until that point, I never seriously considered the CL.

[Herr Barnack]

2 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

Now I am confused. I printed some of my CL pictures (wanted to show my commitment), but so far none of my M10 pictures. Did I get this wrong?

Seriously, perceptions like these probably contributed to the demise of Leica's APS-C system.

It depends on the picture, how large you want to print and the final image quality you are after in the final print.

 

 

[dkCambridgeshire]

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6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Extrapolating a step away from APS-C to discontinuing the L mount is a leap.

The only people who know the sales of CL and TL2 cameras are at Leica.  I do not believe for a moment that they would stop development of a line of cameras that is selling well.  That would be very strange, unless each camera is made at a loss (which I also doubt).

What we do know is that more photos are taken with cellphones that anything else.  Leica has released its own, large sensor phone, but only in Japan - one of its strongest markets?  It is, at best, a toe in the water.

Leica was, 4 years ago(?), expressing commitment to APS-C, and they invested in developing the TL lenses and two cameras.  Leaving aside the understandable disappointment here (I also own a TL2), why do you think Leica is now saying that it has not made a decision about the future of APS-C?  They suffered considerable backlash over the R system decision …TLConversely, they have made a huge commitment to the SL.

If you’re making and selling expensive cameras and lenses, handmade in Germany, I suspect you want to ensure a point of difference in image quality, and equipment which no-one else makes.  I can understand why Leica came to the conclusion that APS-C doesn’t have a future.  They thought the T camera was going to be a hit.  It wasn’t, and the camera it should have been, the TL2, came too late.  The CL, an APS-C sensor wrapped in a faux M body, was an after-thought and was never developed further (compared to three T cameras - T/TL/TL2).   

Leica gear is expensive.  It’s never going to be cheap.  Right or wrong, I suspect Leica sees no future in anything smaller than an M camera, with anything less than full frame …

Leica TL lenses are made in Far East ... not Germany.

In 2014, for the Leica 'T' system, four Leica T lenses were announced; in 2015 to 2021 only 3 additional TL lenses were announced and manufactured. Just 7 TL lenses released in 7 years ... and nothing longer than 202mm FF equivalent ... hardly an APS-C 'system' of lenses. I had two Leica TL2 cameras ... one replaced under warranty ... neither would  consistently work with Leica R lenses via an R to L adapter. I gave up on the TL2 and Leica refunded me the ££. After my frustrating experiences with the TL2  I was not convinced that the CL would work reliably with long focus Leica R lenses  ... so I did not try or buy the CL.  A friend bought a CL ... in his opinion it's years behind other manufacturers' ICL APS-C offings because it does not have IBIS. 

I still use my Leica T ... with the 11-23mm and legacy lenses 

. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by dkCambridgeshire

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I would think that for making 16x24 or 24x36 inch - or larger - exhibit quality prints, a full frame sensor would be the way to go.

I suppose that depends on how demanding of IQ the image maker is,though.

Sensor size has nothing to do with it; it is about resolution and acuity from the lens-sensor combination - 24 MP is ample for such prints. 

[IkarusJohn]

20 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Leica TL lenses are made in Far East ... not Germany 

35 Summilux-TL is made in Germany

[cpclee]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

35 Summilux-TL is made in Germany

As is the 60/2.8 APO Macro ASPH--not that it matters.   Leica lenses are great whether they are made in Germany, Canada, Japan or Portugal.  

[nicci78]

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I would think that for making 16x24 or 24x36 inch - or larger - exhibit quality prints, a full frame sensor would be the way to go.

I suppose that depends on how demanding of IQ the image maker is,though.

I make prints with my CL no difference with my former M10. Just like @jaapv said only acuity and resolution count. 

TL lenses can reach higher MTF than M lenses in order to make them equally competent for larger prints. Not my words : Peter Karbe's one.

As far as my experience goes with prints. It holds true.  

[nicci78]

Look at the bright side. If there is no CL2, the CL will keep its value forever. Just look at X Vario and X2 prices, their used price never plummeted. 

CL will be a classic, joining the Leica hall of fame. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by nicci78

[LocalHero1953]

6 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

A friend bought a CL ... in his opinion it's years behind other manufacturers' ICL APS-C offings because it does not have IBIS. 

That's one criterion, but for me not a particularly important one. I've shot most of my life without IS of any sort, and most of my subjects are moving, for which IS is not a help. I have a SL2-S for when I want IBIS & OIS (and other things).

My criteria are size, weight, and image quality combined with lens quality. I did a quick survey of cameras that could be considered as alternatives to the CL in the same IQ ballpark, and surprisingly found the CL at the front of the bunch. Ordered by weight. No Sony here, which I suppose I should have included - but I don't want a Sony interface.

Lesson: pick your criteria for judging and you will find Leica at the front of the pack - or the back.

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[raadoo]

17 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

That's one criterion, but for me not a particularly important one. I've shot most of my life without IS of any sort, and most of my subjects are moving, for which IS is not a help. I have a SL2-S for when I want IBIS & OIS (and other things).

My criteria are size, weight, and image quality combined with lens quality. I did a quick survey of cameras that could be considered as alternatives to the CL in the same IQ ballpark, and surprisingly found the CL at the front of the bunch. Ordered by weight. No Sony here, which I suppose I should have included - but I don't want a Sony interface.

Lesson: pick your criteria for judging and you will find Leica at the front of the pack - or the back.

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Before anyone jumps in with but what about the lenses... I put together a similar table back in 2018 when I was looking for a compact ILC.

And when combining and comparing equivalent lens weights, the lineup is still the lightest APS-C system in the marketplace.

[LocalHero1953]

10 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I think that says more about the level of commitment to photography of those Leica users than it does about the M system. 

Do you mean a greater level of commitment to photography is shown by those who ditch their M for a CL? Perhaps😉! I sold my M because it DIDN'T have the capability I wanted: silent shutter and video on the fly, weatherproofing, WYSIWYG viewfinder, long and wide lenses etc. There was no other camera that combined all I wanted, so I got (and still have) a CL and SL (now SL2-S).

Quote

 

I would think that for making 16x24 or 24x36 inch - or larger - exhibit quality prints, a full frame sensor would be the way to go.

I suppose that depends on how demanding of IQ the image maker is,though.

 

It also depends on the experience and skill in post-processing as well, and whether the exhibitor is relying on the impressive size of the image or the actual content. Most of the exhibitions I go to show images at A2/A3 (or historical equivalents). There are exceptions of course: Gursky, Salgado, Ansel Adams. 

These days I suspect most photos that are published for display (i.e. not commercial/advertising/journalism etc), are published in photobooks, which are typically a much smaller format - with exceptions, <A4 is typical.

Edited November 6, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[robgo2]

On 11/5/2021 at 1:05 AM, nicci78 said:

I don’t know why everybody are in panic mode ??

Have you noticed that we are in the middle of a massive chip shortage. 
Even chip shortage immune Apple reported a 6 Billions loss last quarter ! Due to lack of certain composants. 
Car industry is at halt. 

CL2 exists for sure. It was pre announced to dealer for a March 2021 release. 
But for unknown reasons postponed (certainly due to chip shortage) 

Every photo manufacturers were not able to ramp up production in august for Holidays sales. 
Therefore not enough cameras and lenses will be produced for Christmas!! 
Expect price rise in second hand market. 
 

So it is pretty smart for Leica to put all its efforts into future high margin M11 instead of low margin CL2. 
So be patient and get ready to buy CL2 in March-April 2022 

 

Nicci78, your optimism is truly refreshing, even though it is based on a rumor from last winter. OTOH, there is a recent post on Leica Rumors in which someone claims that Stefan Daniel made a statement to the effect that there will not be a CL2. So we have dueling rumors, but the one involving Stefan Daniel seems more authoritative to me. Also, the omission of any mention of the CL/TL from the user survey is a seriously bad omen.

[robgo2]

On 11/5/2021 at 5:06 AM, Mike1974 said:

Hi , 

Maybe Leica stops the CL , but Lumix or Sigma will continue with a new one ? Why produce a new L mount lens when the company who makes this APSC camera just decided to stop producing it . Its a bit strange , I'm sure they pass on between them certain amount of information .

I just received my TL 23mm summicron Lens ... LOL 

If Leica abandons APS-C, perhaps the best scenario would involve Sigma releasing an L-mount APS-C camera that will satisfy the high standards of CL owners. If that is the case, would the Sigma "CL" work with Leica TL lenses, meaning autofocus? What is the case with current current Leica L mount lenses on Panasonic and Sigma L mount cameras?

[robgo2]

On 11/5/2021 at 2:14 PM, IkarusJohn said:

The only people who know the sales of CL and TL2 cameras are at Leica.  I do not believe for a moment that they would stop development of a line of cameras that is selling well.  That would be very strange, unless each camera is made at a loss (which I also doubt).

 

If you take a stroll over to the B&H website and look at the user comments for the Leica CL, you will find that there have been only three comments thus far in the year 2021, the last being in June. The logical conclusion that I draw is that the camera is not selling well, which may be why Leica will not be extending the line into the future. Perhaps APS-C generally is a dead format walking, which would be a shame.

[Michael Markey]

12 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

There was no other camera that combined all I wanted, so I got (and still have) a CL and SL (now SL2-S).

 

Using that very combination today .

The CL with the 35 Summilux TL was a joy to use .

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[robgo2]

12 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Do you mean a greater level of commitment to photography is shown by those who ditch their M for a CL? Perhaps😉! I sold my M because it DIDN'T have the capability I wanted: silent shutter and video on the fly, weatherproofing, WYSIWYG viewfinder, long and wide lenses etc. There was no other camera that combined all I wanted, so I got (and still have) a CL and SL (now SL2-S).

Just for the record, the CL lacks weatherproofing, but you already know that. 😉