S4 product recommendation

[epines]

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I doubt they'll change the sensor size at all, but if they do, it should be 45mm x 36mm. The current S lenses would probably cover it nicely, and it would be the only 4x5 sensor on the market. Those who wanted a 4:3 or 3:2 aspect ratio could crop it and never go below the sensor dimensions of the current S sensor.

 

 

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[darkdays]

On 8/13/2022 at 2:17 AM, shanefking said:

 Arguably they could make more real-estate by incorporating a square sensor, which would be an interesting choice, as there has never been a square format Leica, IIRC.

I'd love a square sensor, as this would obviate the need for a vertical grip or acrobatics to go vertical, and allow anyone to crop to whatever aspect ratio they need.

I'd be game for S4 long as it is mirrorless, and does not have 3:2 aspect ratio, which I detest and rarely use. 1x1, 4x5 or 4x3 would be my preferences.

Edited August 24, 2022 by darkdays

[Stuart Richardson]

I also would love a 4x5 sensor, but I don't think it is likely. Since Leica invented the 2:3 aspect ratio for film (or at least popularized it), I think it will likely continue in that direction. I am not sure if Leica has ever had a camera that was not 2:3, unless maybe one of the compact digitals that they made with other companies...

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I am not sure if Leica has ever had a camera that was not 2:3, unless maybe one of the compact digitals that they made with other companies...

Nerd alert: the 1960s Leicina 8S and 8V (regular 8mm cine) were 1.36:1. Later Super-8 Leicinas were 1.45:1. The D-Lux has user-selectable aspect ratios from 1:1 to 16:9, including 3:2 and 4:3. The sensor itself is 4:3.

I would be surprised if the next S used anything other than 2:3, but you never know, especially if Leica switches Sony's MF sensors.

 

[Jon Warwick]

+1 here for (much) preferring a 4x5 aspect ratio.

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall reading the 2x3 ratio in the Leica S was partly planned to keep the mirror (and hence overall camera size) smaller?? If the next S was a mirrorless, clearly that rationale becomes a moot point, but that is possibly just me wishful thinking!

I'd be very pleased if the next S was mirrorless with a 100 megapixel sensor, similar to what I have in my GFX100S.  But if Leica produces an S, I would hope they provide lenses that record tones of detail, but (really importantly IMHO) achieve a rendering that is also gentle and cinematic. Whilst I like my GFX, the biggest challenge for me with that camera + GF lens is getting to a rendering that I like, ie, I often struggle to tame the high acuity and "digital sharpness" of the output.  For some images, I can achieve it, and for others simply not .....

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jon Warwick

[tom0511]

One more vote for 4:5 aspect ratio.

[BernardC]

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1 hour ago, Jon Warwick said:

I'd be very pleased if the next S was mirrorless with a 100 megapixel sensor, similar to what I have in my GFX100S.  But if Leica produces an S, I would hope they provide lenses that record tones of detail, but (really importantly IMHO) achieve a rendering that is also gentle and cinematic. Whilst I like my GFX, the biggest challenge for me with that camera + GF lens is getting to a rendering that I like, ie, I often struggle to tame the high acuity and "digital sharpness" of the output.

That was my issue with Fuji APS-C cameras: they looked like the sharpness sliders had been set to maximum. It's very different from the S look, and I'm sure that Leica wouldn't do things that way, even if they used the same sensor.

[helged]

Yes, 4x5-size sensor would be great!  And somewhat similar ti 6x7 that I love from Mamiya 7.

[Jon Warwick]

8 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

 

Deleted - (bizarrely) a duplicate post.

But to helged’s point, the Mamiya 7 was among my favorite and most used cameras ever. The Leica M7 that I already owned at the time (and still own) barely got a look-in due to the superior image quality of the 120 negative.  I always wished that Leica would produce its own version of a Mamiya 7, but with the typical all-metal and all-finessed construction that we associate with Leica, but maybe that’s where Alpa fits in!

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jon Warwick

[shanefking]

1 hour ago, Jon Warwick said:

Deleted - (bizarrely) a duplicate post.

But to helged’s point, the Mamiya 7 was among my favorite and most used cameras ever. The Leica M7 that I already owned at the time (and still own) barely got a look-in due to the superior image quality of the 120 negative.  I always wished that Leica would produce its own version of a Mamiya 7, but with the typical all-metal and all-finessed construction that we associate with Leica, but maybe that’s where Alpa fits in!

Imagine a rangefinder mirrorless S… with a 6x7 sensor why not, lets dream a little

[Jon Warwick]

On 8/25/2022 at 4:55 PM, BernardC said:

That was my issue with Fuji APS-C cameras: they looked like the sharpness sliders had been set to maximum. It's very different from the S look, and I'm sure that Leica wouldn't do things that way, even if they used the same sensor.

With my GFX100S, even with sharpening at zero in ACR, I sometimes find i need to apply Blur in filters to achieve a less sharpened rendering that is closer to my personal taste, especially for smaller images to, say, 20"x16". With Leica, I typically don't have that challenge ..... even with my M10 Monochrom, which has about the highest acuity one can get in digital due to no color filter array, and even with the sharpest and most modern lenses like the M 35 APO that I've tried on it, where the resultant image is full of fine detail but doesn't look overly sharp for my taste.

[setuporg]

18 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

With my GFX100S, even with sharpening at zero in ACR, I sometimes find i need to apply Blur in filters to achieve a less sharpened rendering that is closer to my personal taste, especially for smaller images to, say, 20"x16". With Leica, I typically don't have that challenge ..... even with my M10 Monochrom, which has about the highest acuity one can get in digital due to no color filter array, and even with the sharpest and most modern lenses like the M 35 APO that I've tried on it, where the resultant image is full of fine detail but doesn't look overly sharp for my taste.

I'm eagerly awaiting X2D to see what the proper design/IQ brand will have done with that sensor!:)

[kparseg]

This might be discussed before... would the mirrorless S4 require a new line of S lenses?

[setuporg]

Surely there will be some new compact lenses with a much shorter flange distance.  But we hope the current lenses will “just work”.

[helged]

4 hours ago, kparseg said:

This might be discussed before... would the mirrorless S4 require a new line of S lenses?

Back-compatibility has generally been high on the priority list to Leica. Examples include using old (and, in particular, wide) M-lenses on digital M-sensors, adapting M- and R-lenses to SL, and using TL-lenses on SL in crop mode. Consequently, an electronic adapter will likely be released in parallel with S4, allowing adaptation of existing S-lenses to S4.

[BernardC]

8 hours ago, kparseg said:

This might be discussed before... would the mirrorless S4 require a new line of S lenses?

Yes, and not just because the S lenses are bigger than mirrorless lenses would be.

The new lens system would need to be optimized for fast AF and low power draw, like the SL lenses are. That means no mechanical link between the focus ring and the optics (something which makes the S lenses a pleasure to focus manually), and more complex designs to accommodate an ultra-light 'focusing group'.

I'm sure that Leica would sell us an adapter for S lenses, like they do with the "S-Adapter-L", but the S lenses won't be optimized for the new platform, so they'll seem unresponsive and power-hungry.

 

[Jeff S]

Exactly, essentially a larger format SL; less so a mirror-less S, without the signature optical VF and mechanical focus control. 
 

Jeff

[Stuart Richardson]

That seems the most likely…at least to me. I can even see it replacing the higher megapixel SL body, leaving a 35mm SL2S style body with slightly higher MP to cater to the mid range. 
 

My wish list would actually be for an analog 6x7cm camera from Leica (or even to revive Sinar to make it) but that seems less likely than Leica buying Sony... 

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[kparseg]

On 8/31/2022 at 5:37 AM, BernardC said:

Yes, and not just because the S lenses are bigger than mirrorless lenses would be.

The new lens system would need to be optimized for fast AF and low power draw, like the SL lenses are. That means no mechanical link between the focus ring and the optics (something which makes the S lenses a pleasure to focus manually), and more complex designs to accommodate an ultra-light 'focusing group'.

I'm sure that Leica would sell us an adapter for S lenses, like they do with the "S-Adapter-L", but the S lenses won't be optimized for the new platform, so they'll seem unresponsive and power-hungry.

 

Interesting, I appreciate your input, Bernard. I'm wondering what the new S line (or whatever it'll be called) lenses could do. I can't imagine a better IQ than what current S lenses can deliver. But 100 CS with a faster AF motor would be a dream.

I'm also curious if Leica would want to create a larger-diameter mount, like Nikon Z did? Nikon's Z mount is large enough to fit a 44x33 sensor, if needed. Would S4 have a future proof mount in case Leica decides to go digital 645 in the future? Lot's of speculations but somehow I doubt it.

[Stuart Richardson]

At least to me, the million dollar question is how big a sensor the L mount will support...because if they can fit a larger than 35mm sensor in an L mount camera, then I think that makes the most sense. If that worked, then you could use the 35mm L mount lenses natively in a crop sensor mode, like they did with the TL lenses on the SL line. Then you would have an extremely versatile professional camera system. MF lenses for when you need maximum resolution and image quality, and a host of native 35mm lenses for when lens speed, compactness or long telephoto/superwide work is needed. I do not know if this is technologically possible, however. Forgive me if I have already mentioned this several times...to me it would be the most exciting possibility of a new S system. I think it would also open up more buyers to the system, as you could ease the transition with SL lenses, M and R lenses, as well as Panasonic and Sigma lenses, and a prospective buyer would likely not need to buy a multi-lens setup in the new system immediately. They could either wait or buy the standard lens or lens that most appealed to them. One of Leica's biggest problems always seems to be getting out lenses fast enough to satisfy demand, and this would help a lot, I am sure.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Stuart Richardson