S4 product recommendation

[BernardC]

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16 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I think they would really knock it out of the park if they could do it for 10k...a noticeable premium over the SL line, but still priced such that it is not wildly more expensive than its peers.

I agree. There's no major reason why the body couldn't sell for a similar price to the X2D. Lenses are a different story, of course.

[Pelu2010]

The S4

should go mirrorless 

smaller 

faster 

ibis 

backiluminated sensor 

phase detect 

multishot 

 

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[dritz]

On 12/29/2022 at 9:38 AM, Pieter12 said:

In my experience, both with film and digital, the larger format and higher resolution cameras perform much better when used with a tripod. Smaller format, lighter cameras are easier to handle and more forgiving.

The high ISO performance of the S3 is helpful here to secure a higher shutter speed. We use MF because we want that look. I have to say that image stabilization is the one thing that would make a world of difference for the S. Second, focus adjustment when the camera pivots on access from the focus-event (like Hasselblad).

[Einst_Stein]

Fujifilm and Hasselblad are lowing their price. That may be a challenge to Leica. 

But, since when the other brand's lower price ever shakes Leica's main stream lines, such as M and SL? I think Leica's optical and IQ is still the strength other's is looking up. I would leave out the price issue and not look back.

Then the question is whether S line should be mirrorless.  For what? make it lighter? Seriously, does mirrorless really make the system smaller and lighter? Check out SL, you'll have the answer. 

Or, maybe it's the EVF that matters. technically this should be easy. Two options: the first is to replace OVF with EVF, the other is make it dual VF. Such as external optional EVF like EVF for M, or simply built-in dual VFs. I can't see which option  is good.     

[robb]

Leica is likely headed toward a scaled up SL camera mirrorless format for the S4…

but, I have found that shooting in manual mode with mirrorless viewfinders with strobes with Leica or hasselblad does not give a bright enough image without modeling lights (even in outdoor scenes.  Since Leica S cameras rely on professionals shooting strobe with the CS lenses, they will likely need to create a better viewfinder mode than PAS, or PASM since neither shows a bright viewfinder image without modeling lights.  I doubt professionals are going to shoot strobe in anything but M mode.  Maybe I’m old school, but I think the optical viewfinder will continue to reign supreme for strobe use.  
 

so Leica, please add a PASM+ mode so that we can actually see and focus in dark environments when shooting iso 100 at 1/1000 wide open.  Mirrorless cameras fail in these situations.

Robb

[BernardC]

10 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

Then the question is whether S line should be mirrorless.  For what? make it lighter? Seriously, does mirrorless really make the system smaller and lighter?

The main reason would be to open-up a different market. The S cameras are mostly for professionals, with a few non-professional sales thrown-in (I count myself in that category). A mirrorless medium format system would sell mostly to non-professionals, with some pro sales thrown-in. That alone could mean 10x more sales.

[Einst_Stein]

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3 hours ago, BernardC said:

The main reason would be to open-up a different market. The S cameras are mostly for professionals, with a few non-professional sales thrown-in (I count myself in that category). A mirrorless medium format system would sell mostly to non-professionals, with some pro sales thrown-in. That alone could mean 10x more sales.

I am afraid mass market is not Leica’s dish. 

Leica abandoned ASP-C market, I think it is hard to compete with Fujifilm X with the price structure and productivity. If what implied mirrorless medium format is to follow GFX, it would not work.  

Even L mount Leica is hard to catch up in offering variations. It has to work with others to fill the need.  Granted, Leica’s offering is good enough for who know what it is. There is really not much need of fast paced update like other players, though the mass market users have lots of ridiculous expecting. Look for threads like “does XXX still make sense in 202x?”, or “why Leica still no firmware update for XXX”, it sounds like Leica Camera should be like Apple, automatically self-dysfunction  after several years. 

Leica’s strategy to satisfy mass market is to second source other’s stuffs and put Leica label on it. 

Maybe it is time Leica to work with Fujifilm again to put its label and price tag on GFX 100s. 

And yes, (only) the Leica version will have the capability(through firmware?) to accept the proprietary S to GFX full function adapter.

 

[steveash]

12 hours ago, robb said:

Leica is likely headed toward a scaled up SL camera mirrorless format for the S4…

but, I have found that shooting in manual mode with mirrorless viewfinders with strobes with Leica or hasselblad does not give a bright enough image without modeling lights (even in outdoor scenes.  Since Leica S cameras rely on professionals shooting strobe with the CS lenses, they will likely need to create a better viewfinder mode than PAS, or PASM since neither shows a bright viewfinder image without modeling lights.  I doubt professionals are going to shoot strobe in anything but M mode.  Maybe I’m old school, but I think the optical viewfinder will continue to reign supreme for strobe use.  
 

so Leica, please add a PASM+ mode so that we can actually see and focus in dark environments when shooting iso 100 at 1/1000 wide open.  Mirrorless cameras fail in these situations.

Robb

Have you turned off ‘Exposure Simulation’ for the EVF? It’s certainly possible in the Hasselblads. The viewfinder then allows you to see when you have underexposed to take flash into account. I made it a shortcut on the X1D as I work with flash a lot.

[JohnathanLovm]

In theory the 44x33 sensor can fit into SL Type 601 body so I guessing:

100MP with multi-shot to 400MP

Dual shutter system.

Flip screen 

18mm or 16mm flange focal distance (that’s would be engineering marvel if Leica can pull that)

price around USD8000 should they want to stay competitive with GFX and X2D.

 

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[John McMaster]

Leica invented the 3:2 ratio, will they change to anything else....

john

[helged]

7 hours ago, JohnathanLovm said:

In theory the 44x33 sensor can fit into SL Type 601 body so I guessing:

100MP with multi-shot to 400MP

Dual shutter system.

Flip screen 

18mm or 16mm flange focal distance (that’s would be engineering marvel if Leica can pull that)

price around USD8000 should they want to stay competitive with GFX and X2D.

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

A competetive price for S4 - viewed from Wetzlar - is likely around 1.5 to 2 times the cost of comparable alternatives. As users we can disagree, but this is how it is.

Edited March 18, 2023 by helged

[Pieter12]

On 2/10/2023 at 5:43 AM, BernardC said:

The S cameras are mostly for professionals, with a few non-professional sales thrown-in (I count myself in that category). A mirrorless medium format system would sell mostly to non-professionals, with some pro sales thrown-in.

I agree the S cameras sold mostly to professionals. Why would you think a mirrorless S would not target the same market?

[Stuart Richardson]

Most professionals that I am aware of use mirrorless. The GFX is very popular with professionals, at least here…

[Pieter12]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Most professionals that I am aware of use mirrorless. The GFX is very popular with professionals, at least here…

Professionals use mirrorless MF cameras because there is currently nothing else in production that still has a mirror, except the PhaseOne system.

[Jon Warwick]

23 hours ago, JohnathanLovm said:

In theory the 44x33 sensor can fit into SL Type 601 body so I guessing:

100MP with multi-shot to 400MP

Dual shutter system.

Flip screen 

18mm or 16mm flange focal distance (that’s would be engineering marvel if Leica can pull that)

price around USD8000 should they want to stay competitive with GFX and X2D.

 

 

Not sure I can envisage Leica pricing overly close to Fuji or Hassie. Then again, continuous deals with the SL cameras and lenses make that system not soooo far away from peers.

If the S4 got close to 100mp and with multi shot, it would be a beast for landscapes! Hopefully Leica can continue its lens and sensor rendering that has a slightly relaxed and less digital feel to it. I have a GFX100S, and quite often prefer the rendering for smaller prints from both my former SL2 and the M11 that I’ve tried. IMHO I tend to find the GFX’s out-of-camera DNG sharpness is relatively high versus the Leicas, and for my personal taste it can be a bit too much for me and not always easy to detune for smaller prints, even with sharpening at zero in ACR.  But I like the rendering once the GFX image is enlarged bigger to (say) 60”, given I think the digital squeakiness is detuned and softened a little by the resampling.

[BernardC]

16 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

I agree the S cameras sold mostly to professionals. Why would you think a mirrorless S would not target the same market?

The key word is "mostly." I obviously don't know what the numbers are, but let's say 60/40, professional to amateur (and a lot of those amateur sales are discounted "demo" pieces). In an ideal world, Leica would keep those 60 professional sales, and sell 400 or 4000 to amateurs, at full price.

It's a different marketing strategy, although it would be very familiar because that's how most "pro" cameras are marketed. As the old saying goes: "90% of professionals use Hasselblads, 90% of Hasselblads sell to amateurs."

[shanefking]

16 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Professionals use mirrorless MF cameras because there is currently nothing else in production that still has a mirror, except the PhaseOne system.

“Professionals” is such a broad term that its almost irrelevant.  As I understand it, most commercial studio rental houses don’t even have Leicas or their lenses available because it comparably inferior when it comes to tethering in a studio.  
 

I would love to see an actual study of who owns S cameras, whether they primarily are purchased by working photographers or well-heeled hobbyists… personally I suspect the latter, simply because the S system requires a major investment for a camera that on paper has few advantages over other MF systems.

[ynp]

1 minute ago, shanefking said:

because it comparably inferior when it comes to tethering in a studio.  

The S3 and S007 tether pretty well to C1. 

[ZHNL]

I noticed S magazine hasn’t been updated for years. I guess no more “pro” use S now?

Personally, S OVF experience is one of few reasons left you want to use it. The more pixel it offers, the higher requirement AF speed and accuracy which I think it is subpar in market after 10 years without progress. For landscape, lens rendering is not important, resolution and sensor DR are. For portrait, AF is important.

I enjoy using S, but agree with market that this is not a competitive offer. If rumored S4 will only happen after 2026, it is slow. 

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[Pieter12]

37 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

I noticed S magazine hasn’t been updated for years. I guess no more “pro” use S now?

Personally, S OVF experience is one of few reasons left you want to use it. The more pixel it offers, the higher requirement AF speed and accuracy which I think it is subpar in market after 10 years without progress. For landscape, lens rendering is not important, resolution and sensor DR are. For portrait, AF is important.

I enjoy using S, but agree with market that this is not a competitive offer. If rumored S4 will only happen after 2026, it is slow. 

Maybe because the S has been out of production for long enough that the marketing value of a dedicated magazine is no longer viable. And portrait photographers worked successfully long before AF and continue to do so. AF is more vital to action, sports and lifestyle photographers. Maybe nature, depending.