Sony A7C - poor man's Digital M (?!)

[Dennis]

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I guess the Sony A7c with the lens kit (28-60) is a great combo for fun, street, and travel. Just put the lens at f/5.6 all day, and use only the display, and you will be the king of the world 🙂 Sincerely, considering the camera has very similar specs than the A7III, it could be a very nice companion for daily photos. If I think at $2,100 price for:

• 24MP
• FF BSI sensor
• 15 stops DR
• Great ISO performance
• Fully articulated display 
• Amazing Eye AF
• 750Gr lens + battery + camera 

Just to play around, to use daily, because its size, weight, and features, I think, prefer the A7C compared with a FujiFilm X100V. Ditto! Leica M gives us a completely different approach, IQ, features, etc. (we all know what). Two distinct worlds for two different purposes, style and process to shoot. But both great.

Because we love and use Leica M, it doesn't mean we are not open mind. I would love to have a Sony A7C tomorrow. What about you?

🤷‍♂️

 

[martinot]

2 hours ago, carbon_dragon said:

No again you misunderstand. Now that Leica has admitted (by their actions) that they don't intend to guarantee that someone's digital Leica M (such as a particular M8 or M9 or M10) will continue to be repairable for a couple of decades, as a Leica owner you aren't guaranteed that your individual camera will continue to work beyond some number of years (say 10). It has nothing to do with whether Leica is still selling digital Ms. But your particular M10 may only work for say 10 years. So it's not the availability of THE LEICA M that I'm talking about, it's the ability of YOUR particular Leica M.

Now you might say that no camera maker is going to make that guarantee (and you'd be right). Heroic or expensive means of doing so like very favorable trade-ins (better than they are doing now) or creating upgrade paths to upgrade MX's to M(X+1)'s aren't likely to happen. The idea is pretty crazy for Fuji or Sony or Nikon but it was not unknown in the distant past for Leica. But in any case we can be pretty sure that isn't going to happen. That doesn't mean YOUR M10 might not last 30 years (with luck). But you just can't necessarily count on it because that is how electronic parts work.

So, maybe $8000 is nothing for you, in which case you don't care and you continue to buy new digital Ms. Maybe it does and you have to make your buying decision on 10 years of use (at minimum, you may well get more). Since some people are price sensitive, now $8000 cameras come down to $800/year potentially. But if a $2000 A7C gives you 4 years of use and is guaranteed repairable for 10 years, you might think that that is a better prospect. It is all up to you of course, it just potentially changes the economic calculation based on your personal finances. This doesn't spell "DOOM" (thunder going off in the distance) for Leica. But it might affect's someone's decision whether to pay $8000 for an M (or even pay $5000 for a used M since by definition it has a somewhat more limited lifespan depending on your luck).

Thanks for the explanation. I get your point, and what your really wanted to say (to my defence it was not very obvious without this explanation, at least for me).

I totally agree that Leica screwed up on their design of the M9 sensor, and also their handling on the issue and aftermath.

That said, Sony releases a constant stream of mirror less cameras, with new gadgets and features, and the old models tend to deprecate quite fast in value.

In contrast, other manufacturers like Fuji for example, usually have way better support of issues in old cameras and firmware. Fujifilm have been really great in updating their old cameras, and support me as an existing user.

Sony not so much. A lot issues has been left unresolved, and Sonys actions has been to just fix issues in new camera models, and leave current camera models unfixed. Bad treatment of their existing cameras and users.

Edited September 18, 2020 by martinot

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[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, pgk said:

I had the 28/2 on my A7II. Its an ok lens. Perfectly adequate and great value, and software corrections sort out its distortion. But I wasn't overwhelmed by it and actually sold it a couple of weeks ago. I've replaced it with the 20/1.8 which gets rave reviews, but again I find it ok but nowhere near as impressive as the 21SEM. The one really good Sony lens that I use a lot is the 50 macro, but its an 'old school' design which doesn't use internal focus, and its close-up working distance is poor (not quite figured why as yet). Sony gear is IMO quite competent but I've yet to find a lens which really impresses me. That said, their lenses are lightweight if relatively bulky, which is a plus.

 I agree. I had the 28/2 for a few years and for the price is more than adequate. I got some really nice pictures out of it. In the end I sold it and got a 24mm f1.4, which is really great. 

I don't have the 50 macro but the 55 is really impressive. 

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, Alexandre Petrescu said:

for the dynamic range part, Sony claims 15stops of dynamic range in the A7C announcement.  Is that better  than Q2?

I'd expect to have the A7III sensor so definitely yes.

[martinot]

49 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Because we love and use Leica M, it doesn't mean we are not open mind. I would love to have a Sony A7C tomorrow. What about you?

🤷‍♂️

 

Very open minded! 

 

Have a lot of cameras from other manufacturers than Leica (Nikon, Canon, Panasonic and Fujifilm).

Besides rangefinders, I also use DSLRs, mirrorless and i instant film cameras.

Regarding the Sony mirrorless cameras they have a lot of features and technical prowess. But it is not cameras that I like to use or connect with (have tried to many times).

I think it is natural that they released the A7C, as they really do not update their APS-C range much (a little, but almost all real focus is on FF for Sony). I have of course not had a chance to test it (it is very new), but it seems to be very close to the ergonomics and menus of A6000, which I really dislike a lot.

So I will try it (I love new products and gadgets), but personally I am so far very unexcited about it.

[Simone_DF]

One big advantage of Sony is that Voigtlander has been releasing some lenses in Sony mount, so you can somehow get the best of both worlds, fully optimized "M" lenses but with native Sony mount and edges performace. 

No 28mm yet, but they have 14 lenses:

https://www.voigtlaender.de/lenses/e-mount/?lang=en

And same for the Zeiss Loxia line

 

[Simone_DF]

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7 hours ago, rramesh said:

Being a rush job, they have missed on more refinements e.g. a more user friendly menu and touch screen, better viewfinder etc. The next version will probably see marked improvements. 

The A7SIII is shipping with a new menu system, are they really shipping the A7C with the older one? That's really sloppy. Maybe they'll update it with a firmware upgrade

[martinot]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

The A7SIII is shipping with a new menu system, are they really shipping the A7C with the older one? That's really sloppy. Maybe they'll update it with a firmware upgrade

Yes, that is so strange! They ship it with the old (bad) menus. Not the new (greatly improved) ones. Crazy.

Going by the history of Sonys previous actions they will absolutely not fix it afterwards. If it had been Fujifilm it might have been possible.

Sony is really, really bad in supporting existing camera models (just minor fixes or additions).

Any major update; they just release yet another new camera model you have to pay and upgrade to get the new software. Not bothering to update firmware for existing models.

People complain here about Leica and M9 (and I am also one of them), but they fail to see how really bad Sony is with supporting their software and firmware for their existing customers. It is all about always selling the latest and greatest cameras to their customers. Always buy new - is Sonys slogan for fixing poor software design in previous models.

Fujifilm is the opposite, and really good att supporting existing customers and existing camera models. They maybe sell fewer new camera models (extending the functionality for their old ones for free), but on the other hand they might get really appreciative and lojal customers. Perhaps a good business case for the long term, even if maybe not in the short term. I like it a lot anyway.

Edited September 18, 2020 by martinot

[AZN]

3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

The A7SIII is shipping with a new menu system, are they really shipping the A7C with the older one? That's really sloppy. Maybe they'll update it with a firmware upgrade

From the reviews I have read, it is the old menu system.  There are claims you need the more powerful processor in the A7SIII for the new menus.  Seems like a questionable claim IMO…. More probably a decision made by our friends in Marketing.

[bherman01545]

I would rather buy a used M9 or M240 over a FF Nex Sony. You don't just buy a camera for a FF sensor. The Leica is a 'minimalist's' camera. Not 7-levels deep in menus.

Nothing to stand in your way, at least that's my opinion. I'm sure that the Sony takes good pictures, but I know for me, I bought into Leica lenses a long time ago. They hold their value and are all very, very good.

I won't spend my $$ on 'plastic-fantastic' cameras anymore

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, martinot said:

Yes, that is so strange! They ship it with the old (bad) menus. Not the new (greatly improved) ones. Crazy.

Going by the history of Sonys previous actions they will absolutely not fix it afterwards. If it had been Fujifilm it might have been possible.

Sony is really, really bad in supporting existing camera models (just minor fixes or additions).

Any major update; they just release yet another new camera model you have to pay and upgrade to get the new software. Not bothering to update firmware for existing models.

People complain here about Leica and M9 (and I am also one of them), but they fail to see how really bad Sony is with supporting their software and firmware for their existing customers. It is all about always selling the latest and greatest cameras to their customers. Always buy new - is Sonys slogan for fixing poor software design in previous models.

Fujifilm is the opposite, and really good att supporting existing customers and existing camera models. They maybe sell fewer new camera models (extending the functionality for their old ones for free), but on the other hand they might get really appreciative and lojal customers. Perhaps a good business case for the long term, even if maybe not in the short term. I like it a lot anyway.

In general I agree with you, but the 3.0 firmware from last year was pretty big: Animal Eye AF, Real Time Eye AF and Interval Shooting, plus minor fixes, and it was for both A7III and A7rIII, so it looks like they are improving on this front

[Dennis]

Don't you think that more advanced photographers out there (and here), not influencer, vlogger, or part-time photographers, prefer Fujifilm over Sony?
I had in the past the first version of the X100, and I loved it. It was not my top, but they say X100v is so much better than the previous version. Or cameras such as XT-4 ... I heard great things about it. And I also see many people using the Sony FF mirrorless. The IQ, large quantity of third parts lens/accessories, it's very customizable.
For the people here having M system and mirrorless cameras (but not Leica L-mount), which brand do you use/prefer? Panasonic, Fuji, or Sony?

 I never considered Fuji because the lack of FF cameras under $2.5k

[martinot]

44 minutes ago, Dennis said:

For the people here having M system and mirrorless cameras (but not Leica L-mount), which brand do you use/prefer? Panasonic, Fuji, or Sony?

 I never considered Fuji because the lack of FF cameras under $2.5k

I think we should, now days, also include Canon and Nikon, as options of mirrorless systems, but agree with you about it being an interesting topic/question.

Personally I am not so fixated that the sensor size has to be exactly 24x36 mm. I sure use that sensor format (for my  M camera and DSLR), but also other sensort formats like APS and M43, and could think about using MF in the future as well.

I think the advancement of sensor technology (back illumination sensors), IBIS, and others gives much more than one step of light. Also you have to consider what optics, and how much light the lenses collect for your camera (regardless of sensor size, they tend to be of same size if they use AF-motors, if they collect the same amount of light).

[pippy]

5 hours ago, Dennis said:

Because we love and use Leica M, it doesn't mean we are not open mind. I would love to have a Sony A7C tomorrow. What about you?..

No. Not even as a gift.

Philip.

[Matlock]

8 hours ago, pippy said:

No. Not even as a gift.

Philip.

Oh come on. You could always pass it on to someone you hate. 😆

[Simone_DF]

9 hours ago, Dennis said:

 I never considered Fuji because the lack of FF cameras under $2.5k

And this is why nobody else is considering Fuji as well. Too expensive for what it is. Lenses are also pricey, and third party lenses support is almost non-existent. I'd be more interested in their medium format offering, but it doesn't seem to be there yet. Maybe in a year or two.

To answer your other question, I'm currently a Sony user, but apart from the stellar AF I don't really like it and I'm always looking at ditching them for something else. I may give the S5 a try, but so far the Panasonic AF has been a massive disappointment.

[pippy]

1 hour ago, Matlock said:

Oh come on. You could always pass it on to someone you hate. 😆

The only people I've hated that strongly are already dead.

I've tried A7's just as I've tried many other mirrorless cameras from other manufacturers. I sort-of liked a couple of the Fuji bodies (the X-Pro versions) but otherwise? Not for me. Even just the never-ending screen-upon-screen of menus, sub-menus sub-sub-menus and sub-sub-menu-menus are enough to have me throwing these camera in the bin. Does anyone really need 2,500 permutations of set-up before they can take a photograph?

If I'm going to pick up a camera to take photographs I'll pick up a Leica. M-D Typ-262. No screen available. Sorted.

Philip.

Edited September 19, 2020 by pippy

[martinot]

36 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

And this is why nobody else is considering Fuji as well. Too expensive for what it is. Lenses are also pricey, and third party lenses support is almost non-existent.

Wow. Coming from a Leica user and a Sony user.

Joke a side.

I have cameras from many different manufacturers; Leica, Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, Lomography (and have owned Minolta in the passed, and also been very close to buying Sony mirrorless), and they each have their different strengths and weaknesses. No camera, and no manufacturer, is perfect. That is the hard reality.

I am really no fan boy of any brand. Use the tools I deem best and most price worthy for what I am looking for. That is why I have cameras from so many different vendors. I do not subscribe to only buying from and "supporting" one company.

If I however was forced to cut it down to just one system; it would be the Fuji X system that I would keep. It such a good value for money, fantastic optics/lenses (they used to do a lot of lenses for Hasselblad, and makes really expensive lenses for film industry, like Zeiss and Leica), and a very good competent system for most things (even if not perfect for everything), and with a very nice usability and mechanical user interface.

Fortunately I do not have to restrict myself to just one vendor - so I can use whatever camera system I feel like.

Side note: I am also thinking about an MF system in the future, but besides Fujifilm I am also considering Hasselblad. Both looks to be really great systems with great lenses (even if both of their eco systems of modern lenses is a little small today).

[jankap]

Member Vieri Bottazzini has good results using Leica lenses on his MF camera.

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[Peter Zapp]

I like the viewfinder right there, with my nose in fresh air rather than squeezed and smearing the LCD. I liked my Hi-Matic, my M6, my NEX-6 for the same reason. 

I fail to comprehend why the majority of mirrorless bodies imitate a faux prism finder, with space left and right from the sensor to accommodate rolled film. It reminds me of early motorcars that adopted design features from horse carriages.

Mirrorless failed to deliver pancake lenses that truly match the likes of NEX-6 or A7C. High performance lenses for mirrorless bodies with fast internal autofocus are bulky and long. Perhaps body designers should rethink.