AZN Posted September 12, 2020 Share #1 Posted September 12, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) There has been a bit of news about it in the last few days - so appologies if this has been posted already: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7c-vs-panasonic-gx7-vs-sony-a7iii-comparison/ https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7c-additional-specs-leaked/ Yes I know it won't work properly with most M lenses wider than 50mm. Yes I know the manufacturing and image quality is greatly inferior to the M10/ M10P/ M10R. But… $US 2K (?) for the body; IBIS; a pretty good battery and no rangefinder to drift out of alignment. Ahem - why cannot Leica do something like this?… 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 Hi AZN, Take a look here Sony A7C - poor man's Digital M (?!). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LocalHero1953 Posted September 12, 2020 Share #2 Posted September 12, 2020 Leaving aside the question of IBIS, there are always trade-offs in designing a camera this small. Sony gains practical, usable space over the Lumix and M by having a fatter body, and by making the EVF stick out the back. Leica cannot to do that while keeping the traditional M 'no-bumps' form factor, but I guess might sacrifice a bit of the CL design to make a full-frame equivalent: a battery grip and a fatter body would be acceptable, though I don't like protruding eyepieces (they catch on things). Given the constraints, Sony looks like it's done a good job in the shape. Still too many buttons, though, and I wonder how it manages with battery life and heat management. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graafber Posted September 12, 2020 Share #3 Posted September 12, 2020 Because Sony is making already this plastic things. Why copy? Leica find his strength in their own category. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cboy Posted September 12, 2020 Share #4 Posted September 12, 2020 There are tradeoffs i guess with an entry level system like its small viewfinder. I doubt leica will ever price any future rangefinder that low. Looks like sony is trying to upgrade its A series crop sensor user base and phase out the e system I guess we can always hope for a FF CL?lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike3996 Posted September 12, 2020 Share #5 Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) Guess what else is two grands and a poor man's digital M? Leica M9 used. Edited September 12, 2020 by mike3996 11 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsydaus Posted September 12, 2020 Share #6 Posted September 12, 2020 Nothing about that Sony monstrosity says Leica replacement to me. Maybe some of the Fuji’s but honestly the design and ergonomics look horrendous. 9 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 12, 2020 Share #7 Posted September 12, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) To me it looks most like a new upgrade of the FF iterations of the NEX cameras - something I gave up on with the NEX7. Nasty in use, dubious with M lenses. I get a feeling that Sony has a habit of bringing out design after design in the hope one will make the grade. Until now this seems to have worked. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simone_DF Posted September 12, 2020 Share #8 Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) Unless you really want a super pocketable camera, you’re better served by a A7III which has basically the same specs (allegedly) but at a lower price. I guess they want to slowly phase out their APS-C line and push vloggers and newcomers to full frame Edited September 12, 2020 by Simone_DF 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZN Posted September 12, 2020 Author Share #9 Posted September 12, 2020 FWIW I will be buying one. Should work fine with the Voigtlander 40mm Nokton, along with longer M lenses. Need a lightweight and compact camera for the landscape stuff I am currently doing. Toting a 1.5 kg camera/ lens combo gets old fast when trekking 10km a day and humping up and down ++150m hills. Was looking at one of the digital Ms, but no. The M10-R is $AUD 13.5K while the M10-P is $AUD 11.8K. I have the money, but IMO the price just isn't worth it. https://leica-store.com.au/categories/camera_systems/leica_m/m_cameras Finally, smashing a $2K camera hurts a lot less than something ++3x more expensive 😃 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrostl Posted September 13, 2020 Share #10 Posted September 13, 2020 Fuji. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinot Posted September 13, 2020 Share #11 Posted September 13, 2020 (edited) On 9/12/2020 at 7:35 AM, AZN said: There has been a bit of news about it in the last few days - so appologies if this has been posted already: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7c-vs-panasonic-gx7-vs-sony-a7iii-comparison/ https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7c-additional-specs-leaked/ Yes I know it won't work properly with most M lenses wider than 50mm. Yes I know the manufacturing and image quality is greatly inferior to the M10/ M10P/ M10R. But… $US 2K (?) for the body; IBIS; a pretty good battery and no rangefinder to drift out of alignment. Ahem - why cannot Leica do something like this?… Why compare it to the really old GX7 m43 camera at all? It looks just like they took their APS A6600 camera, and changed the APS sensor to FF. Personally I think it was a bad decision for Sony from the beginning to shoehorn in a FF sensors behind a camera mount optimized for APS. Perhaps no problem in practice (the old Nikon F-mount had not so much practical problems to compete with Canons bigger EF-mount), but still not any good decision IMHO. My personal take on this is that Sony wants to kill their whole line of APS-C cameras and E-mount lenses, and will from now on only continue with their FF cameras and their FE-lenses. Sony APS-C E-mount is now dead. Expect the market to plummet in prices (both new and used). Sony´s current APS-owners will take the hit. Edited September 13, 2020 by martinot Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinot Posted September 13, 2020 Share #12 Posted September 13, 2020 20 hours ago, AZN said: FWIW I will be buying one. Should work fine with the Voigtlander 40mm Nokton, along with longer M lenses. Need a lightweight and compact camera for the landscape stuff I am currently doing. Toting a 1.5 kg camera/ lens combo gets old fast when trekking 10km a day and humping up and down ++150m hills. Was looking at one of the digital Ms, but no. The M10-R is $AUD 13.5K while the M10-P is $AUD 11.8K. I have the money, but IMO the price just isn't worth it. https://leica-store.com.au/categories/camera_systems/leica_m/m_cameras Finally, smashing a $2K camera hurts a lot less than something ++3x more expensive 😃 Nothing wrong with buying a mirrorless camera. I have several mirrorless cameras that I love. But they are no rangefinders, and no replacement for such an M camera. You do not buy an M-camera because it is cheap to trash/smash. You do not buy it be lightweight (the lenses might be, but not the M cameras). You buy it because you have a passion for zen like photographing with rangefinder focusing. That said; there are so many good options for mirrorless cameras besides Sony! I personally love the Fujifilm mirrorless cameras, but would also consider Nikon Z-mount, Canon RF-mount. and Leica, Panasonic and Sigma L-mount cameras over Sony FE cameras. Last thing; Sony have a lot of great native lenses, and personally I would skip M-lenses on Sony. The M-lenses will always perform better on M cameras than any mirrorless cameras (and especially avoid Sony cameras with less than optimal sensor package for M-lenses). Go for the great range of Sony FE lenses. For a Sony (or any other mirrorless camera for that matter); I strongly recommend using native lenses optimized for that camera system. For M-lenses; I strongly recommend using native M cameras optimized for that type of very special lenses. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted September 13, 2020 Share #13 Posted September 13, 2020 Meh, I'm not this rich to call 2K USD camera as "poor man". I went with under 1K USD FF Canon RP. Small body, just as digital M and 485 gm. Works fine with 35, 50 mm RF lenses. Works even better with any EF mount lens. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Why Leica won't do it? Because of different business category. Leica is manufacturing in tiny numbers, selling for high price. Sony, Canon are dominating on the market with mass produced cameras for less price, but no glory and no sexy appeal. 2 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Why Leica won't do it? Because of different business category. Leica is manufacturing in tiny numbers, selling for high price. Sony, Canon are dominating on the market with mass produced cameras for less price, but no glory and no sexy appeal. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/313271-sony-a7c-poor-mans-digital-m/?do=findComment&comment=4045255'>More sharing options...
AZN Posted September 13, 2020 Author Share #14 Posted September 13, 2020 4 hours ago, martinot said: You do not buy an M-camera because it is cheap to trash/smash. You do not buy it be lightweight (the lenses might be, but not the M cameras). You buy it because you have a passion for zen like photographing with rangefinder focusing. Over the last 20 years I have regularly used the following rangefinders: * Leica M3 (SN > 1M) → sold it to a collector * Leica M4-P → sold it to offset the price of a new M6TTL * Leica M7 → courtesy camera while my M3 was being serviced in Germany * Leica M6TTL (0.85x) → still have and use it * Leica IIIG (1957) → still have and use it I think I know the benefits/ disadvantages of using a rangefinder. One of the other benefits - for me - is that the camera is compact and tough. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinot Posted September 13, 2020 Share #15 Posted September 13, 2020 18 minutes ago, AZN said: Over the last 20 years I have regularly used the following rangefinders: * Leica M3 (SN > 1M) → sold it to a collector * Leica M4-P → sold it to offset the price of a new M6TTL * Leica M7 → courtesy camera while my M3 was being serviced in Germany * Leica M6TTL (0.85x) → still have and use it * Leica IIIG (1957) → still have and use it I think I know the benefits/ disadvantages of using a rangefinder. One of the other benefits - for me - is that the camera is compact and tough. As a long time M user and camera owner, you should already know and be aware of that the rangefinder mechanisms in the M cameras can never compete with much simpler mirrosless cameras based on price. It is an impossible equation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimlarks Posted September 13, 2020 Share #16 Posted September 13, 2020 I have a Panasonic GX-8 with a Panasonic Leica DG Summilux 15mm f1.7 and a Panasonic Leica 12-60mm f2.8-4 Vario Elmarit, and a Leica M-10 (purchased pretty recently) with 3 lenses. Those will suffice. I know the Panasonic is not full frame (far from it!) but until I bought the Leica it was the camera I liked using the most of the various ones I've owned over the years. I don't know how much use the Panasonic will be getting now that I have the M-10 and lenses for it. I really prefer manually focusing over auto-focus, and Leica's rangefinder over trying to manually focus on an auto-focus camera. But, of course, the cost of the GX-8 and those 2 lenses are about 1/3 of what just the M-10 body cost, much less the lenses for it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinot Posted September 15, 2020 Share #17 Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) On 9/13/2020 at 11:44 PM, crimlarks said: I have a Panasonic GX-8 with a Panasonic Leica DG Summilux 15mm f1.7 and a Panasonic Leica 12-60mm f2.8-4 Vario Elmarit, and a Leica M-10 (purchased pretty recently) with 3 lenses. Those will suffice. I know the Panasonic is not full frame (far from it!) but until I bought the Leica it was the camera I liked using the most of the various ones I've owned over the years. I don't know how much use the Panasonic will be getting now that I have the M-10 and lenses for it. I really prefer manually focusing over auto-focus, and Leica's rangefinder over trying to manually focus on an auto-focus camera. But, of course, the cost of the GX-8 and those 2 lenses are about 1/3 of what just the M-10 body cost, much less the lenses for it. Why limit you as a photographer to only just one camera system? A rangefinder and a mirrorless are very different kind of systems. I think they complement each other much more, than compete with each other. It is not either or for me. Not black and white only. I think they have very much different uses cases, and enjoy them in very different type of photography. I also have the GX8, and some smaller and lighter Lumix m43 cameras like the GM1 and GM5. I love to use them when I would like to travel really light (much lighter than my digital M camera), but still have something more flexible (possibility to change lenses, and add a small flash) than my mobile phone or my compact camera. Great cameras and with some some good, and some great lenses. My favorite is also the Leica 15/1.7 - outstanding for being AF and so small. Love that lens! Edited September 15, 2020 by martinot Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted September 15, 2020 Share #18 Posted September 15, 2020 On 9/12/2020 at 7:57 AM, LocalHero1953 said: Given the constraints, Sony looks like it's done a good job in the shape. Still too many buttons, though, and I wonder how it manages with battery life and heat management. Almost mirrors my thoughts. Its a logical step in the Sony full-frame evolving line-up. But Sony need to sort their UI out. Its a mess - I have A7IIs and even after quite a lot of use I struggle to remember where things are in the multiple menus and randomly placed buttons. They should take a long hard look at Leicas and realise that less is often more - far more. Interesting camera though and I can see some useful applications for it. FWIW I have been using the newish Sony 20/1.8 recently. It gets rave reviews and is undoubtedly a good lens, but IMO the 21SEM still runs rings around it ..... and its light enough but hardly diminutive in any way. The M systems still sits there, out on its own - a superb outlier which still defies mainstream photographic thinking. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinot Posted September 15, 2020 Share #19 Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) Totally agree with a lot of what you and others reflect on. Sony makes fantastic technological innovations, both with their camera division and not least their fantastic sensor company (I personally a big fan of the Sony sensors, I think they are outstanding, and the absolutely best on the market). Today they also have some really great lenses (even if far from all) that I really like. But I as a photographer I am not at all compatible with their cameras. I have seriously tried them many times, and have been close to buying some. But even if I have tried the hardest to like them, they have never felt right or connected with me. This might possibly be unfair, and it is perhaps a personal feeling, but it is like the cameras where designed by software engineers to be like computers, not to be used as photographic tools. Despite their fantastic specs/tech, I am sorry to say (no offense to you or other Sony users) that they are my least favorite cameras. But this is a very personal feeling, and highly subjective (I am fully aware of that). Edited September 15, 2020 by martinot Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted September 15, 2020 Share #20 Posted September 15, 2020 1 hour ago, martinot said: Despite their fantastic specs/tech, I am sorry to say (no offense to you or other Sony users) that they are my least favorite cameras. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. On a personal, subjective level I totally agree with you. But as a tool to deliver images they can be a great choice. Heres a photo of my current underwater set-up. Lightweight (I used to use Canon FF cameras and the Sony is SO much easier to carry) and effective, for me, the Sony A7II can be a great underwater unit and a very capable one, once that is I have finished fighting the appalling menus. Set to manual and with a minimum of other control adjustments pre-determined, it works well and delivers. But I rarely use the cameras outside studio type shots because I have Leica M9s which in most situations deliver better imagery because I work better with them. But the A7IIs can deliver technically. Sadly, Leica don't really make anything as viable for underwater use as the Sony. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/313271-sony-a7c-poor-mans-digital-m/?do=findComment&comment=4046223'>More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.