Sony A7C - poor man's Digital M (?!)

[pippy]

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11 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

On what planet is a Sony mirror less camera a Leica M?

Uranus? Well, not yours, obviously...

Philip.

[jdlaing]

14 minutes ago, pippy said:

Uranus? Well, not yours, obviously...

Philip.

Or ours.

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[pgk]

24 minutes ago, lykaman said:

Thoughts Please:- If one put a Leica 28mm Elmarit onto the A7C would it be comparable with the Q2 in respect of IQ?

Well from my experience of using Leica lenses on Leicas and Leica lenses on Sonys I would say that the images will be slightly different. So it probably depends on your definition of comparable. 

[lykaman]

21 minutes ago, pgk said:

Well from my experience of using Leica lenses on Leicas and Leica lenses on Sonys I would say that the images will be slightly different. So it probably depends on your definition of comparable. 

I was thinking on the possible color shift/edges/corners etc.. I suppose it's a try it and see situation.. L

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, lykaman said:

Thoughts Please:- If one put a Leica 28mm Elmarit onto the A7C would it be comparable with the Q2 in respect of IQ?

As far as I know, among the Leica 28s, only the 28 ‘lux perform well on the A7 series, so the Elmarit won’t be a good pairing. 
if you want to stick to M mount, the Voigtlanders are a better match, I think the 28 Ultron works fine

for IQ I’d say the Q2 is definitely better, but the A7C paired with, say, a comparable 28/35mm has many advantages, namely AF performance, ability to change lens, price, dynamic range, noise, a working eye and face recognition. 
it all comes down to personal preferences in the end, but I can see the A7C as a great second body especially when traveling 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Simone_DF

[lykaman]

5 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

As far as I know, among the Leica 28s, only the 28 ‘lux perform well on the A7 series, so the Elmarit won’t be a good pairing. 
if you want to stick to M mount, the Voigtlanders are a better match, I think the 28 Ultron works fine

for IQ I’d say the Q2 is definitely better, but the A7C paired with, say, a comparable 28/35mm has many advantages, namely AF performance, ability to change lens, price, dynamic range, noise, a working eye and face recognition. 
it all boils down to personal preferences in the end, but I can see the A7C as a great second body especially when traveling 

Great Info, Thanks, I was trying to see if in fact it was cheaper way to get the portability of the  Q2. Using Voigtlander means the images cannot be Posted here..It seems at the end of the day the Q2 is the best set up for the $'ss...    Thanks Again      L

[Simone_DF]

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Just now, lykaman said:

Great Info, Thanks, I was trying to see if in fact it was cheaper way to get the portability of the  Q2. Using Voigtlander means the images cannot be Posted here..It seems at the end of the day the Q2 is the best set up for the $'ss...    Thanks Again      L

Well you could get a A7C or A7III and the super cheap Sony 28mm f2. It’s smaller, cheaper and lighter than a Q2, and it’s a great little combo that can produce some really nice results, if you can live with its quirks (strong barrel distortion, average sharpness). Want sharper results? Go for the Tamron 28-75 f2.8 so you don’t need to crop and you’ll still get a very portable combo. 

[lykaman]

22 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Well you could get a A7C or A7III and the super cheap Sony 28mm f2. It’s smaller, cheaper and lighter than a Q2, and it’s a great little combo that can produce some really nice results, if you can live with its quirks (strong barrel distortion, average sharpness). Want sharper results? Go for the Tamron 28-75 f2.8 so you don’t need to crop and you’ll still get a very portable combo. 

More great info, to be honest I'm really Leica guy, I got the Canon 90D (it's an alright camera but nothing special) as a playaround thing until my vision really returns  I held off from the Q2 thinking that maybe there might be another upgrade or P version..I'm in no hurry.. L

[-Lss-]

15 hours ago, lykaman said:

Thoughts Please:- If one put a Leica 28mm Elmarit onto the A7C would it be comparable with the Q2 in respect of IQ?

No.

There is a significant difference in resolution, and A7C is likely to show serious issues towards the edges. So far I have not even seen a photo out of A7C, but I have seen or used all the other A7 series cameras. The Leica Q2 is a superb solution for 28mm.

The A7C with 28mm Elmarit is probably quite nice, too.

[FrozenInTime]

Some very disparaging words about the “viewfinder tunnel” in the dpreview video. 

This would make it a non starter for the subset of M lenses that work with Sony’s thick cover glass.

[martinot]

If one really wants the combo of manual M lenses on a mirrorless (not my personal favourite combo), I would suggest looking for a used Leica SL. It has a great viewfinder, and most importantly, the sensor stack has been optimized to work well with Leica M lenes, including wide angle lenses (which is where I think where M lenses really excels).

I do not think many here has had the chance to use any A7C yet as it is a very new camera. But given the history of Sony sensors they are about the worst to combine with wide angle M lenses (50mm and tele is no problem for any camera).

[pgk]

11 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Well you could get a A7C or A7III and the super cheap Sony 28mm f2. It’s smaller, cheaper and lighter than a Q2, and it’s a great little combo that can produce some really nice results, if you can live with its quirks (strong barrel distortion, average sharpness). Want sharper results? Go for the Tamron 28-75 f2.8 so you don’t need to crop and you’ll still get a very portable combo. 

I had the 28/2 on my A7II. Its an ok lens. Perfectly adequate and great value, and software corrections sort out its distortion. But I wasn't overwhelmed by it and actually sold it a couple of weeks ago. I've replaced it with the 20/1.8 which gets rave reviews, but again I find it ok but nowhere near as impressive as the 21SEM. The one really good Sony lens that I use a lot is the 50 macro, but its an 'old school' design which doesn't use internal focus, and its close-up working distance is poor (not quite figured why as yet). Sony gear is IMO quite competent but I've yet to find a lens which really impresses me. That said, their lenses are lightweight if relatively bulky, which is a plus.

[AZN]

1 hour ago, martinot said:

I would suggest looking for a used Leica SL.

No IBIS.  2015 sensor, which works great in strong light but is quite noisy at ISO > 3200.  1.3 kg with Summicron-M 35mm ASPH.  Worse with bigger lenses.  (Yes I have one and have been using it since 2017)

Hence the desire for a camera body which is lighter, with IBIS, which handles poor light well.

SL2 is of course much better.  But weight/ cost/ bulk etc.

The M10-P or M10-R would be quite good - for my needs.  But $cost/ benefit isn't worth it IMO.  And no, as I mentioned earlier, I don't care about the rangefinder viewing experience.

Different people have different needs.  And not every problem is a nail…

Edited September 18, 2020 by AZN

[wizard]

Am 12.9.2020 um 22:17 schrieb AZN:

Finally, smashing a $2K camera hurts a lot less than something ++3x more expensive 😃

Why would you like to smash even a $2K camera? 😁

[AZN]

16 minutes ago, wizard said:

Why would you like to smash even a $2K camera? 😁

"Like"?  Who said anything about "liking" it?

Smashed one camera when falling over slippery rocks while working my way along a coastline a couple of years ago.  15kg rucksack, tide coming in, walking alone.  It happens.

My first serious camera was a Nikon F2A. Worked all year in the last year of high-school so I could afford a used copy.  A couple of months later it fell out of my hand with a 80-200mm zoom attached.  The weight of the lens tore the body lens-mount out of the camera when it hit the concrete. Had to sell the F2A for spare parts.  It happens.

So in forty-odd years have written off two bodies.  What I like about the Leica Ms is that they hold up rather well 😃

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by AZN

[rramesh]

The Sony A7c seems a lot like a rush job to:

a) thwart off competition from Canon and Nikon who have introduced cameras targeting Vloggers

b) address the need for a more rangefinder like compact look which is a strength of Fuji

c) offer a FF camera at a lower price range (I suspect price drops closer to Christmas)

Being a rush job, they have missed on more refinements e.g. a more user friendly menu and touch screen, better viewfinder etc. The next version will probably see marked improvements. 

[Alexandre Petrescu]

15 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

As far as I know, among the Leica 28s, only the 28 ‘lux perform well on the A7 series, so the Elmarit won’t be a good pairing. 
if you want to stick to M mount, the Voigtlanders are a better match, I think the 28 Ultron works fine

for IQ I’d say the Q2 is definitely better, but the A7C paired with, say, a comparable 28/35mm has many advantages, namely AF performance, ability to change lens, price, dynamic range, noise, a working eye and face recognition. 
it all comes down to personal preferences in the end, but I can see the A7C as a great second body especially when traveling 

for the dynamic range part, Sony claims 15stops of dynamic range in the A7C announcement.  Is that better  than Q2?

[martinot]

3 hours ago, AZN said:

No IBIS.  2015 sensor, which works great in strong light but is quite noisy at ISO > 3200.  1.3 kg with Summicron-M 35mm ASPH.  Worse with bigger lenses.  (Yes I have one and have been using it since 2017)

Hence the desire for a camera body which is lighter, with IBIS, which handles poor light well.

SL2 is of course much better.  But weight/ cost/ bulk etc.

The M10-P or M10-R would be quite good - for my needs.  But $cost/ benefit isn't worth it IMO.  And no, as I mentioned earlier, I don't care about the rangefinder viewing experience.

Different people have different needs.  And not every problem is a nail…

For mirrorless cameras, especially other than Leicas own, I would definitely go for native original lenses optimised for that mirrorless system, instead of adapting M-lenses (if possible).

Usually you get much better image quality, and better handling, when you go for a system with both cameras and lenses optimised for each other.

M-lenses will always perform optimally on M-cameras.

All that said I totally agree with different tools for different needs.

I love my DSLR  cameras for sport photos and big tele lenses, and my mirrorless cameras for ultimate portability, and my general go to cameras. Rangefinder and manual focusing M-lenses I reserve for enjoyment in slowing down my photography process.

I also use my mobile phone quite a bit (a camera/tool I always have with me). No problem at all with different tools for different use cases.

Edited September 18, 2020 by martinot

[carbon_dragon]

22 hours ago, pippy said:

Then why on Earth did you type;

"NOW that they have admitted they have no intention......of keeping the digital Ms going..."

Goodness Me! You might have given someone a heart attack!...I now realise that you were merely discussing the future unavailability of 'bits'. That's fine.

Carry On, Everyone!

Philip.

No again you misunderstand. Now that Leica has admitted (by their actions) that they don't intend to guarantee that someone's digital Leica M (such as a particular M8 or M9 or M10) will continue to be repairable for a couple of decades, as a Leica owner you aren't guaranteed that your individual camera will continue to work beyond some number of years (say 10). It has nothing to do with whether Leica is still selling digital Ms. But your particular M10 may only work for say 10 years. So it's not the availability of THE LEICA M that I'm talking about, it's the ability of YOUR particular Leica M.

Now you might say that no camera maker is going to make that guarantee (and you'd be right). Heroic or expensive means of doing so like very favorable trade-ins (better than they are doing now) or creating upgrade paths to upgrade MX's to M(X+1)'s aren't likely to happen. The idea is pretty crazy for Fuji or Sony or Nikon but it was not unknown in the distant past for Leica. But in any case we can be pretty sure that isn't going to happen. That doesn't mean YOUR M10 might not last 30 years (with luck). But you just can't necessarily count on it because that is how electronic parts work.

So, maybe $8000 is nothing for you, in which case you don't care and you continue to buy new digital Ms. Maybe it does and you have to make your buying decision on 10 years of use (at minimum, you may well get more). Since some people are price sensitive, now $8000 cameras come down to $800/year potentially. But if a $2000 A7C gives you 4 years of use and is guaranteed repairable for 10 years, you might think that that is a better prospect. It is all up to you of course, it just potentially changes the economic calculation based on your personal finances. This doesn't spell "DOOM" (thunder going off in the distance) for Leica. But it might affect's someone's decision whether to pay $8000 for an M (or even pay $5000 for a used M since by definition it has a somewhat more limited lifespan depending on your luck).

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pippy]

1 hour ago, carbon_dragon said:

No again you misunderstand. Now that Leica has admitted...that they don't intend to guarantee that someone's digital Leica M...will continue to be repairable for a couple of decades, as a Leica owner you aren't guaranteed that your individual camera will continue to work beyond some number of years (say 10)...

Now you might say that no camera maker is going to make that guarantee (and you'd be right)....you just can't necessarily count on it because that is how electronic parts work...

Hi, carbon_dragon. Thanks for your considered reply.

Yes; I did eventually cotton-on to what you meant (hence the "I now realise that you were merely discussing the future unavailability of 'bits'" part) but I admit it took me a short while!

I agree wholeheartedly that $8,000 is a considerable sum to invest in a piece of equipment which is almost inevitably going to fail at some point in the future. Neither Leica nor, as you say, anyone else will guarantee that any piece of electronic equipment they sell will function as intended for a decade or so. It is, therefore, up to us as individuals to decide whether or not the results obtained and pleasure experienced through using such an expensive camera will justify our own initial financial outlay - however much it might have been. In my own case I consider that it does.

$800 per year works out at around $2.20 per day. A 'regular' cappucino from my local High St. coffee shop costs $3.25.

I can cut out one coffee per day. No problem at all.

Philip.

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by pippy